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Of course it is satirical but I think people forget that the CoC's that been gaining traction lately are themselves a response to a real problem. Yes, some CoC

Of course it is satirical but I think people forget that the CoC's that been gaining traction lately are themselves a response to a real problem. Yes, some CoC's may be fodder for satire and criticism because they cross the line when it comes to being excessively dogmatic. However, these things exist because online communities have been beset by hordes of assholes for a very long time. Many people feel excluded or are dismissed just because some jerk manages to wield a measure of virtual power. It would be a mistake to move in the reverse direction now and abandon CoC's. If they're not working, perhaps change them or try something else, but the problem needs to be addressed.

julian-klode 8y ago
The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Hence, they are saying that the problems solved by CoCs do not exists, or are not problems. This is a disgusting move and we need to make sure to react appropriately by not using sqlite and fossil and other software these people created.
- zzzcpan 8y ago
  They are not irrelevant, they are actively harmful. We need to ridicule code of conducts more before this gets out of hand.
- pgeorgi 8y ago
  > The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Did they? It's a Code of Conduct for communal matters that was written some 1500 years ago. Given that the Benedictine order still exists, it may well be practiced to this day (not sure if they updated it. I wouldn't see a reason.) Given that there's no larger community around sqlite in the GitHub sense (they usually don't even take patches), and https://twitter.com/drichardhipp https://twitter.com/drichardhipp claims that DRH is Christian, they could as well pick a CoC that matches the family operation that is driving sqlite. The page is rather explicit about not having to adhere to the CoC to _use_ sqlite in any shape or form, and you don't get to _develop_ sqlite anyway, so...
  - crispyambulance 8y ago
    OK, but for whatever reason the powers that be at sqlite sees a need to lampoon codes of conduct even though it doesn't apply to them. I don't see what they're getting out such an act. If CoC's don't apply to them, then may be they should shut-up about CoC's and focus more other things, like sqlite. Or, speak up about the CoC's in communities in which CoC's actually exist.
    - zzzcpan 8y ago
      They are developers and participate in various communities affected by CoCs. It's not up to you to decide whether they should or shouldn't speak up about CoCs.
    - pgeorgi 8y ago
      > If CoC's don't apply to them From the CoC page: "Having been encouraged by clients to adopt a written code of conduct" Under my interpretation (not sure if it's the right one - it might as well be satire): "OK, here's a written CoC we abide by", meeting customer demand. It's interesting that this thing existed for months and only now somebody noticed and created outrage.
      - crispyambulance 8y ago
        > It's interesting that this thing existed for months and only now somebody noticed and created outrage. Most folks that use sqlite, would not stumble across that text because they just use the damn thing as-is. But it was raised on HN, so now it is fodder. The sqlite folks could have just answered to these "clients": "No, a CoC does not apply to us because x, y, z". Instead, they chose to insert themselves into the fray with a fairly aggressive piece of satire as an open letter. It was very much their choice, and they've now gotten themselves a lot negative impressions because of HN exposure, I think.
        pgeorgi 8y ago
        See http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Regarding-CoC-tp104277p104336.html http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Regarding-CoC-tp104277p1... for a complete rationale. For the point discussed in this part of the thread: "I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested copies of our company CoC. They did not say this was a precondition for doing business with them, but there was that implication." and "One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those modern CoCs that I so dislike."
- danielvf 8y ago
  There seems to be a logical flaw in your argument. There's an old saying: "Something must be done about this problem. My plan is something. Therefore it must be done!" People may disagree on solutions while agreeing on problems, and disagreement with one solution out of many does not mean ignoring a problem.
- keldaris 8y ago
  Saying that code of conducts are irrelevant does not imply that the problems supposedly solved by CoCs do not exist or are not problems. This is a point of basic logic. If you feel the need to misstate your case to this extent, it does not help your credibility.
klohto 8y ago
What problem? We didn't need CoC for 20 years, why do we need it now?
- fatbird 8y ago
  CoCs have been needed for 20 years and more. Now that we're getting them, there's discomfort at the disruption to the status quo, but it's a status quo that desperately needs disruption.
  - wyoh 8y ago
    >CoCs have been needed for 20 years and more No they have not. Everything was and is perfectly fine and cordial without them.
    - pavel_lishin 8y ago
      > Everything was and is perfectly fine and cordial without them. For you.
- pavel_lishin 8y ago
  Not having something isn't the same as not needing something. "We didn't need X for Y years" is an excellent way of preventing progress, and/or gatekeeping. I feel like this has been covered pretty well online before, but I can expand my thoughts if you'd like.
- Barrin92 8y ago
  because software development has become a professional enterprise, and with that people develop standards on how to interact with each other in large and small organisations, rather than just winging it in a garage. Anyway, "we didn't need X then, why do we need X now" is an absolutely atrocious argument. Because demands and communities change obviously, and with them how we conduct and organise our communities and organisations.
  - katastic 8y ago
bassman9000 8y ago
Don't like the project community, don't use it, don't advocate for it, don't contribute to it, create an alternative. Why is this so difficult to understand? Why this wave of active policing?
Topolomancer 8y ago
I do not think it is supposed to be satirical. I think it was Richard Hipp's way of writing something down that aligns with his personal values. The CoC even states that people should just try to follow it as well as they can: > This rule is strict, and none are able to comply perfectly. Grace is readily granted for minor transgressions. All are encouraged to follow this rule closely, as in so doing they may expect to live happier, healthier, and more productive lives. The entire rule is good and wholesome, and yet we make no enforcement of the more introspective aspects. EDIT: Saw that someones else had already commented on this. Leaving it up anyway. Sorry, folks!

julian-klode 8y ago

The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Hence, they are saying that the problems solved by CoCs do not exists, or are not problems. This is a disgusting move and we need to make sure to react appropriately by not using sqlite and fossil and other software these people created.

zzzcpan 8y ago
They are not irrelevant, they are actively harmful. We need to ridicule code of conducts more before this gets out of hand.
pgeorgi 8y ago
> The SQLite folks are saying that code of conducts are irrelevant. Did they? It's a Code of Conduct for communal matters that was written some 1500 years ago. Given that the Benedictine order still exists, it may well be practiced to this day (not sure if they updated it. I wouldn't see a reason.) Given that there's no larger community around sqlite in the GitHub sense (they usually don't even take patches), and https://twitter.com/drichardhipp https://twitter.com/drichardhipp claims that DRH is Christian, they could as well pick a CoC that matches the family operation that is driving sqlite. The page is rather explicit about not having to adhere to the CoC to _use_ sqlite in any shape or form, and you don't get to _develop_ sqlite anyway, so...
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  OK, but for whatever reason the powers that be at sqlite sees a need to lampoon codes of conduct even though it doesn't apply to them. I don't see what they're getting out such an act. If CoC's don't apply to them, then may be they should shut-up about CoC's and focus more other things, like sqlite. Or, speak up about the CoC's in communities in which CoC's actually exist.
  - zzzcpan 8y ago
    They are developers and participate in various communities affected by CoCs. It's not up to you to decide whether they should or shouldn't speak up about CoCs.
  - pgeorgi 8y ago
    > If CoC's don't apply to them From the CoC page: "Having been encouraged by clients to adopt a written code of conduct" Under my interpretation (not sure if it's the right one - it might as well be satire): "OK, here's a written CoC we abide by", meeting customer demand. It's interesting that this thing existed for months and only now somebody noticed and created outrage.
    - crispyambulance 8y ago
      > It's interesting that this thing existed for months and only now somebody noticed and created outrage. Most folks that use sqlite, would not stumble across that text because they just use the damn thing as-is. But it was raised on HN, so now it is fodder. The sqlite folks could have just answered to these "clients": "No, a CoC does not apply to us because x, y, z". Instead, they chose to insert themselves into the fray with a fairly aggressive piece of satire as an open letter. It was very much their choice, and they've now gotten themselves a lot negative impressions because of HN exposure, I think.
      - pgeorgi 8y ago
        See http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Regarding-CoC-tp104277p104336.html http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Regarding-CoC-tp104277p1... for a complete rationale. For the point discussed in this part of the thread: "I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested copies of our company CoC. They did not say this was a precondition for doing business with them, but there was that implication." and "One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those modern CoCs that I so dislike."
danielvf 8y ago
There seems to be a logical flaw in your argument. There's an old saying: "Something must be done about this problem. My plan is something. Therefore it must be done!" People may disagree on solutions while agreeing on problems, and disagreement with one solution out of many does not mean ignoring a problem.
keldaris 8y ago
Saying that code of conducts are irrelevant does not imply that the problems supposedly solved by CoCs do not exist or are not problems. This is a point of basic logic. If you feel the need to misstate your case to this extent, it does not help your credibility.

klohto 8y ago

What problem? We didn't need CoC for 20 years, why do we need it now?

fatbird 8y ago
CoCs have been needed for 20 years and more. Now that we're getting them, there's discomfort at the disruption to the status quo, but it's a status quo that desperately needs disruption.
- wyoh 8y ago
  >CoCs have been needed for 20 years and more No they have not. Everything was and is perfectly fine and cordial without them.
  - pavel_lishin 8y ago
    > Everything was and is perfectly fine and cordial without them. For you.
pavel_lishin 8y ago
Not having something isn't the same as not needing something. "We didn't need X for Y years" is an excellent way of preventing progress, and/or gatekeeping. I feel like this has been covered pretty well online before, but I can expand my thoughts if you'd like.
Barrin92 8y ago
because software development has become a professional enterprise, and with that people develop standards on how to interact with each other in large and small organisations, rather than just winging it in a garage. Anyway, "we didn't need X then, why do we need X now" is an absolutely atrocious argument. Because demands and communities change obviously, and with them how we conduct and organise our communities and organisations.
- katastic 8y ago

bassman9000 8y ago

Don't like the project community, don't use it, don't advocate for it, don't contribute to it, create an alternative. Why is this so difficult to understand? Why this wave of active policing?

Topolomancer 8y ago

I do not think it is supposed to be satirical. I think it was Richard Hipp's way of writing something down that aligns with his personal values. The CoC even states that people should just try to follow it as well as they can: > This rule is strict, and none are able to comply perfectly. Grace is readily granted for minor transgressions. All are encouraged to follow this rule closely, as in so doing they may expect to live happier, healthier, and more productive lives. The entire rule is good and wholesome, and yet we make no enforcement of the more introspective aspects. EDIT: Saw that someones else had already commented on this. Leaving it up anyway. Sorry, folks!