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I am surprised at how dismissive and intolerant the comments here are of this code of conduct. And I say this as an atheist that still harbors a lot of resentme

I am surprised at how dismissive and intolerant the comments here are of this code of conduct. And I say this as an atheist that still harbors a lot of resentment against my family's religion. Do you have so little empathy that you can't possibly image someone adopting The Rule of St. Benedict in good faith (no pun intended)?

DanielBMarkham 8y ago
Agnostic here. Sure, why not? Group codes of conduct are a form of mutually-enforced morality. Why not pick up a template that seems to have worked in the past and reuse parts of it? It all won't fit, of course, but why re-invent the wheel? I'm really much more interested in the track record of how various of these items worked out (or not) than I am in impeaching the source. Who cares about that stuff?
stephenr 8y ago
> so little empathy that you can't possibly image someone adopting The Rule of St. Benedict in good faith I think it's more that the wording suggests the author pushing his own faith onto others.
- jymbo 8y ago
  That's what every CoC does.
  - stephenr 8y ago
    I've never heard of a CoC demanding belief in a specific deity before.
    - legostormtroopr 8y ago
      Most Codes of Conduct prescribe to ideas of patriarchy or intersectionality - if you don't believe in these, then you are generally reeducated or expelled. I have seen equal evidence for the existence of a God as I have the existence of a Patriarchy.
    - rleigh 8y ago
      If you don't believe in (or criticise) the faith of Intersectionality, then you are subject to persecution and expulsion. There's a very disturbing parallel with the beliefs and aims of militant SJWs and the some of the worst aspects of religious intolerance. CoCs such as the "contributor covenant" are a way of enforcing these beliefs as some kind of religious document, in effect. This makes the SQLite CoC a humourous parody of this type of CoC, being an actual religious document; this is one reason for the "outrage": religion doesn't like fun being poked at it.
- Redoubts 8y ago
  Who are those others, precisely? Suppose the authors fancied themselves a modern monastic order, is this necessarily bad?
- josefx 8y ago
  I think he can't possibly do that as SQLite doesn't accept contributions. There are literally zero people impacted by this CoC that weren't in on it from the beginning.
Sprign 8y ago
I don't think that the problem is adopting in bad or good faith; personally I am saddened because the CoCs are meant to be there to protect people that are usually in a weaker position and in our development communities that usually identifies with a few categories: women, LGBT+, disabled people etc. Now if you look at it from this point of view I think that you can at least see the irony of using a religious text in this context; to be more clear, quoting their webpage: > This code of conduct has proven its mettle in thousands of diverse communities for over 1,500 years Those "thousands of diverse communities" include the ones who were using their religion as a pretext to burn heretics/witches, torture homosexuals and in general oppress the weak and the diverse as well as the ones that today are still trying to infuse young people with their toxic shame when they are non-conforming. This is what really grinds my gears: some people would do anything to NOT take responsibility and hide themselves behind nice words with little to no real content.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kqn35z 8y ago
  > Those "thousands of diverse communities" include the ones who were using their religion as a pretext to burn heretics/witches, torture homosexuals and in general oppress the weak and the diverse as well as the ones that today are still trying to infuse young people with their toxic shame when they are non-conforming. Wow, those Benedictine monks have really been up to some heavy shit.
  - Sprign 8y ago
    Here the discussion was a bit broader and the point was about the religious context rather than the Benedictine themselves. To be fair the Benedictine order wasn't one of the worst orders with respct to whole witch/heresy craze but that kinda furthers the irony of the whole situation: watching to the other side while someone is being persecuted (or bullied) puts you closer to the oppressor than to the oppresed.
    - 8y ago
mikeash 8y ago
Can I imagine it? Sure. Can i accept it? Hell no. I can imagine someone adopting in good faith a code of conduct that says “no colored people.” That doesn’t mean I’ll be happy about it.
- svrtknst 8y ago
  What rules in St. Benedict are comparable to "no coloreds" in your mind? Or do you find them unacceptable due to the context, i.e. that they are part of a larger religious text?
  - mikeash 8y ago
    The very first rule is comparable. We generally consider religious discrimination to be on the same level as racial discrimination.
    - jymbo 8y ago
      Do you truly _believe_ that? Would you say that is one of some number of truths you take on _faith_?
      - mikeash 8y ago
        Yes, I believe that. I don’t take it on faith, I take the “we” part from the fact that religious and racial discrimination tend to be found in the same lists in the laws that outlaw discrimination against certain classes.
stupidbird 8y ago
This says more of "we're lazy and don't actually care to do this seriously" more than it says anything in good faith.

DanielBMarkham 8y ago

Agnostic here. Sure, why not? Group codes of conduct are a form of mutually-enforced morality. Why not pick up a template that seems to have worked in the past and reuse parts of it? It all won't fit, of course, but why re-invent the wheel? I'm really much more interested in the track record of how various of these items worked out (or not) than I am in impeaching the source. Who cares about that stuff?

stephenr 8y ago

> so little empathy that you can't possibly image someone adopting The Rule of St. Benedict in good faith I think it's more that the wording suggests the author pushing his own faith onto others.

jymbo 8y ago
That's what every CoC does.
- stephenr 8y ago
  I've never heard of a CoC demanding belief in a specific deity before.
  - legostormtroopr 8y ago
    Most Codes of Conduct prescribe to ideas of patriarchy or intersectionality - if you don't believe in these, then you are generally reeducated or expelled. I have seen equal evidence for the existence of a God as I have the existence of a Patriarchy.
  - rleigh 8y ago
    If you don't believe in (or criticise) the faith of Intersectionality, then you are subject to persecution and expulsion. There's a very disturbing parallel with the beliefs and aims of militant SJWs and the some of the worst aspects of religious intolerance. CoCs such as the "contributor covenant" are a way of enforcing these beliefs as some kind of religious document, in effect. This makes the SQLite CoC a humourous parody of this type of CoC, being an actual religious document; this is one reason for the "outrage": religion doesn't like fun being poked at it.
Redoubts 8y ago
Who are those others, precisely? Suppose the authors fancied themselves a modern monastic order, is this necessarily bad?
josefx 8y ago
I think he can't possibly do that as SQLite doesn't accept contributions. There are literally zero people impacted by this CoC that weren't in on it from the beginning.

Sprign 8y ago

I don't think that the problem is adopting in bad or good faith; personally I am saddened because the CoCs are meant to be there to protect people that are usually in a weaker position and in our development communities that usually identifies with a few categories: women, LGBT+, disabled people etc. Now if you look at it from this point of view I think that you can at least see the irony of using a religious text in this context; to be more clear, quoting their webpage: > This code of conduct has proven its mettle in thousands of diverse communities for over 1,500 years Those "thousands of diverse communities" include the ones who were using their religion as a pretext to burn heretics/witches, torture homosexuals and in general oppress the weak and the diverse as well as the ones that today are still trying to infuse young people with their toxic shame when they are non-conforming. This is what really grinds my gears: some people would do anything to NOT take responsibility and hide themselves behind nice words with little to no real content.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kqn35z 8y ago
> Those "thousands of diverse communities" include the ones who were using their religion as a pretext to burn heretics/witches, torture homosexuals and in general oppress the weak and the diverse as well as the ones that today are still trying to infuse young people with their toxic shame when they are non-conforming. Wow, those Benedictine monks have really been up to some heavy shit.
- Sprign 8y ago
  Here the discussion was a bit broader and the point was about the religious context rather than the Benedictine themselves. To be fair the Benedictine order wasn't one of the worst orders with respct to whole witch/heresy craze but that kinda furthers the irony of the whole situation: watching to the other side while someone is being persecuted (or bullied) puts you closer to the oppressor than to the oppresed.
  - 8y ago

mikeash 8y ago

Can I imagine it? Sure. Can i accept it? Hell no. I can imagine someone adopting in good faith a code of conduct that says “no colored people.” That doesn’t mean I’ll be happy about it.

svrtknst 8y ago
What rules in St. Benedict are comparable to "no coloreds" in your mind? Or do you find them unacceptable due to the context, i.e. that they are part of a larger religious text?
- mikeash 8y ago
  The very first rule is comparable. We generally consider religious discrimination to be on the same level as racial discrimination.
  - jymbo 8y ago
    Do you truly _believe_ that? Would you say that is one of some number of truths you take on _faith_?
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Yes, I believe that. I don’t take it on faith, I take the “we” part from the fact that religious and racial discrimination tend to be found in the same lists in the laws that outlaw discrimination against certain classes.

stupidbird 8y ago

This says more of "we're lazy and don't actually care to do this seriously" more than it says anything in good faith.