9 ms·

Why UberCab is in trouble. This is the webpage of the S.F. taxi cartel

47 points by uvdiv 16y ago

jluxenberg 16y ago
A "cab" operating in San Francisco without a medallion is illegal...is [not] subject to..meter inspections Perfect example of regulations not keeping up with technology. If I request a "cab" via an iPhone app, I know exactly how far I'm going and how much its going to cost me before I even get in the cab.
- nostromo 16y ago
  Not only that, but there could be a simple review system for drivers. It could actually improve quality by giving riders recourse. ("A+++ WOULD RIDE AGAIN")
  - jessriedel 16y ago
    The last thing I want to do when hailing a cab for a 4 minutes drive is check ebay-style reviews. I just want a cab to appear in front of me when I step out of a building.
    - stretchwithme 16y ago
      yep. and as with most review sites, most people don't check them when they want a service right now right where they are. But they create incentives for good behavior and give those that have the time to plan information with which to make their decisions.
    - nostromo 16y ago
      I don't think you're being very imaginative. I'm thinking more along the lines of filters... like a setting that will only call cabs above a certain quality threshold.
      - jessriedel 16y ago
        But see that's the thing: already, you've agrees that it probably wouldn't be worth the effort to rate cabs on anything besides a single dimension (rating/quality/stars/whatever). At that point, why not simply have the city compile reviews and then require each taxi to paint it's number of stars on the side? And for me, it's not even worth that. I just want a taxi that's insured. I'm not against rating systems on top of what we have now. If it's worth it for you to wait a minute for a better cab, more power to you. (Hell, I might want to take some time to find a nice car if I were on a date or something.) But please don't take away the easy, efficient system we have now in most cities.
    - alanstorm 16y ago
      A+++ Would Ride Again!
sp4rki 16y ago
This has nothing to do with UberCab because they are not dispatching cabs to their customers. UberCab is pre-arranging a limo/professional chauffeur/personal driver service with valid license and insurance policies required for private transport services to pickup a customer at a select location.
- varikin 16y ago
  How is that different than calling for a cab to pick you up at a certain place and time?
  - gojomo 16y ago
    Well, in SF, you can call a cab and wait for hours with it never arriving. It seems the key cab/limo distinction is usually reserved/roaming. While both can be dispatched/reserved, only cabs can roam and be hailed streetside. UberCab is in compliance with that distinction -- they are reserved, just more instantly than ever before, because of the march of technology.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - sp4rki 16y ago
    The difference is that instead of a yellow car, you get a black car. What is a limo service but a luxury version of a taxi service? The distinguishing factor is that one can pickup passengers on the street and by hail and the other is only made by prearrangement and is considered a PRIVATE luxury service.
- uvdiv 16y ago
  I don't understand the laws; my link was to show that S.F. taxis operate as a cartel, and use city laws to enforce their cartel (through medallions and their quota). I don't know if this is precisely what the UberCab C&D is about (it's not been published), but it does show that the S.F. transport market is explicitly and intentionally anti-competitive. That said, the other TechCrunch post seems to say the taxi licensing may be relevant -- the functions UberCab is doing can only be legally done by licensed taxis: >* Ubercab operates much like a cab company but does not have a taxi license. >... >* Limos in U.S. cities usually have to prebook an hour in advance, by law, while only licensed taxis can pick someone up right away but Ubercab picks people up right away (again without a taxi license). http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/24/ubercab/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/24/ubercab/ If limos need to wait an hour to make a pickup, and taxis do not, then UberCab (I think) is doing what only taxis can do and thus needs that license, not the limo one. The fundamental problem is not that UberCab is licensed as a limo rather than a taxi, but rather that it is impossible for it to be licensed as a taxi -- that (as I understand) there is no reasonable way for them to legally do what they are doing. I am not a lawyer.
sahillavingia 16y ago
I built a Taxi-related app for iPhone, specifically for Singapore [1]. I got several calls and emails from cab companies, first trying to brand my app with their company. Then, trying to buy the app off me for little-to-nothing. Then, threatening to "shut [me] down" claiming that this stuff wasn't allowed. Months later, they've all tried to copy the crap out of my app. It's OK if they do it, but not anyone else. [1] - http://taxilah.com/ http://taxilah.com/
lolname 16y ago
The page claims that the sedan services are cheaper... let's verify that claim on a few rides: 2 mile luxor cab: $7.15 5 mile luxor cab: $13.90 10 mile luxor cab: $25.15 1 minute idling luxor cab: $0.45 2 mile yellow cab: $7.15 5 mile yellow cab: $13.90 10 mile yellow cab: $25.15 1 minute idling yellow cab: $0.45 2 mile ubercab: $17.80 5 mile ubercab: $32.50 10 mile ubercab: $57.00 1 minute idling ubercab: $1.25 I fail to see the expense the article implies.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  What page are you talking about?
fleitz 16y ago
The page strikes me as very racist, exactly what is a 'gypsy cab'?
- ShabbyDoo 16y ago
  Would you prefer "Roma Cabs"? In all seriousness, I do agree although I don't think the average American even realizes that Gypsies/Roma are an actual, modern-day ethnic group.
  - tzs 16y ago
    There was an interesting thread on Reddit a couple months ago, where an American said he didn't understand why Europeans hate the Roma so much, and wondered if it was just a baseless prejudice like many Americans have toward Mexicans. The discussion was interesting. Here's the link: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/d3hax/why_does_europe_hate_the_roma_so_much/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/d3hax/why_does_eu... I was amazed at how many of the anti-Roma arguments sounded just like the anti-black arguments you'd find in the early 19th century in the US.
  - js2 16y ago
    The word "gypped" is used indiscriminately by the average American as well.
    - ShabbyDoo 16y ago
      As an American, I hadn't even thought about that word's origin. I guess it's no different than saying, "He Jew'ed him down on the price." My wife told the story of a co-worker who was raised in rural America and used "Jew" (the verb form) as a normal part of her vocabulary without ever having considered the inferred stereotypes. Another co-worker who was Jewish politely called her out, and the "Jew-er" at first had trouble even understanding why the term might be disconcerting to others. The rural woman was not an anti-Semite in the same way that I'm not anti-Roma because I occasionally use the word "gypped". I guess that I should proactively note that I'm not in favor of using the word "Jew" as a verb (or as any other part of speech in such a manner).
jessriedel 16y ago
So I can understand the argument for taxi regulation and prohibiting unlicensed taxis: when I hail a taxi for a 5 minutes drive, I don't want to expend resources looking at competitors, checking to make sure the meter is legit, checking proof of insurance, etc. Since most people want the same thing out of a taxi (as opposed to, say, buying a car), it makes sense for a centralized government agency to do some regulating. But what is the rationale for limiting the number of medallions? Why not just allow anyone who wants to become licensed to do so, while charging a fee which covers the cost of the licencing process? The OP's article lists the obvious dangers of completely deregulating, but it doesn't explain the cap on medallions. (Please, no comments about "because the taxi cartels control the government!". I understand the incentives for existing taxis to erect barriers to the market. I'm more interesting in the rationale of those who argue that a limited number of medallions is in the public interest.)
- fizx 16y ago
  Maybe an extra 5000 cars on the road in the most traffic-dense parts of the city isn't ideal.
  - jessriedel 16y ago
    But is that actually an argument that is given? Is there data showing that taxis are a significant contributor to congestion? If this were a real problem, it would be better to estimate the marginal cost to the city for having an extra car on the road for an extra day (or minute or whatever) and charge that. Then, let the market decide how that affects the number of taxis. (Also, if this were true, it would be an argument for charging everyone, not just taxis, to drive in the city.)
- scott_s 16y ago
  Difficulty in regulating at scale? A license is more than just a badge that means "I paid a fee."
  - jessriedel 16y ago
    >Difficulty in regulating at scale? The per-licence cost of regulating should go down with increased scale (unless there's something really surprising I'm not considering). >A license is more than just a badge that means "I paid a fee." I don't understand what you mean here. I said the licence should reflect the cost to the city for doing the regulating. And the regulating should include stuff like ensuring the meters work, checking insurance, etc.
stcredzero 16y ago
Hailing cabs street-side is really only implementing what Ubercab is doing, but with stochastic pre-distribution of roaming service providers. It's an early industrial-revolution way of doing things because back then we didn't have electronic networks. Really, it should be irrelevant in modern countries.

47 points by uvdiv 16y ago

A "cab" operating in San Francisco without a medallion is illegal...is [not] subject to..meter inspections Perfect example of regulations not keeping up with technology. If I request a "cab" via an iPhone app, I know exactly how far I'm going and how much its going to cost me before I even get in the cab.

nostromo 16y ago
Not only that, but there could be a simple review system for drivers. It could actually improve quality by giving riders recourse. ("A+++ WOULD RIDE AGAIN")
- jessriedel 16y ago
  The last thing I want to do when hailing a cab for a 4 minutes drive is check ebay-style reviews. I just want a cab to appear in front of me when I step out of a building.
  - stretchwithme 16y ago
    yep. and as with most review sites, most people don't check them when they want a service right now right where they are. But they create incentives for good behavior and give those that have the time to plan information with which to make their decisions.
  - nostromo 16y ago
    I don't think you're being very imaginative. I'm thinking more along the lines of filters... like a setting that will only call cabs above a certain quality threshold.
    - jessriedel 16y ago
      But see that's the thing: already, you've agrees that it probably wouldn't be worth the effort to rate cabs on anything besides a single dimension (rating/quality/stars/whatever). At that point, why not simply have the city compile reviews and then require each taxi to paint it's number of stars on the side? And for me, it's not even worth that. I just want a taxi that's insured. I'm not against rating systems on top of what we have now. If it's worth it for you to wait a minute for a better cab, more power to you. (Hell, I might want to take some time to find a nice car if I were on a date or something.) But please don't take away the easy, efficient system we have now in most cities.
  - alanstorm 16y ago
    A+++ Would Ride Again!

sp4rki 16y ago

This has nothing to do with UberCab because they are not dispatching cabs to their customers. UberCab is pre-arranging a limo/professional chauffeur/personal driver service with valid license and insurance policies required for private transport services to pickup a customer at a select location.

varikin 16y ago
How is that different than calling for a cab to pick you up at a certain place and time?
- gojomo 16y ago
  Well, in SF, you can call a cab and wait for hours with it never arriving. It seems the key cab/limo distinction is usually reserved/roaming. While both can be dispatched/reserved, only cabs can roam and be hailed streetside. UberCab is in compliance with that distinction -- they are reserved, just more instantly than ever before, because of the march of technology.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- sp4rki 16y ago
  The difference is that instead of a yellow car, you get a black car. What is a limo service but a luxury version of a taxi service? The distinguishing factor is that one can pickup passengers on the street and by hail and the other is only made by prearrangement and is considered a PRIVATE luxury service.
uvdiv 16y ago
I don't understand the laws; my link was to show that S.F. taxis operate as a cartel, and use city laws to enforce their cartel (through medallions and their quota). I don't know if this is precisely what the UberCab C&D is about (it's not been published), but it does show that the S.F. transport market is explicitly and intentionally anti-competitive. That said, the other TechCrunch post seems to say the taxi licensing may be relevant -- the functions UberCab is doing can only be legally done by licensed taxis: >* Ubercab operates much like a cab company but does not have a taxi license. >... >* Limos in U.S. cities usually have to prebook an hour in advance, by law, while only licensed taxis can pick someone up right away but Ubercab picks people up right away (again without a taxi license). http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/24/ubercab/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/24/ubercab/ If limos need to wait an hour to make a pickup, and taxis do not, then UberCab (I think) is doing what only taxis can do and thus needs that license, not the limo one. The fundamental problem is not that UberCab is licensed as a limo rather than a taxi, but rather that it is impossible for it to be licensed as a taxi -- that (as I understand) there is no reasonable way for them to legally do what they are doing. I am not a lawyer.

sahillavingia 16y ago

I built a Taxi-related app for iPhone, specifically for Singapore [1]. I got several calls and emails from cab companies, first trying to brand my app with their company. Then, trying to buy the app off me for little-to-nothing. Then, threatening to "shut [me] down" claiming that this stuff wasn't allowed. Months later, they've all tried to copy the crap out of my app. It's OK if they do it, but not anyone else. [1] - http://taxilah.com/ http://taxilah.com/

lolname 16y ago

The page claims that the sedan services are cheaper... let's verify that claim on a few rides: 2 mile luxor cab: $7.15 5 mile luxor cab: $13.90 10 mile luxor cab: $25.15 1 minute idling luxor cab: $0.45 2 mile yellow cab: $7.15 5 mile yellow cab: $13.90 10 mile yellow cab: $25.15 1 minute idling yellow cab: $0.45 2 mile ubercab: $17.80 5 mile ubercab: $32.50 10 mile ubercab: $57.00 1 minute idling ubercab: $1.25 I fail to see the expense the article implies.

anigbrowl 16y ago
What page are you talking about?

fleitz 16y ago

The page strikes me as very racist, exactly what is a 'gypsy cab'?

ShabbyDoo 16y ago
Would you prefer "Roma Cabs"? In all seriousness, I do agree although I don't think the average American even realizes that Gypsies/Roma are an actual, modern-day ethnic group.
- tzs 16y ago
  There was an interesting thread on Reddit a couple months ago, where an American said he didn't understand why Europeans hate the Roma so much, and wondered if it was just a baseless prejudice like many Americans have toward Mexicans. The discussion was interesting. Here's the link: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/d3hax/why_does_europe_hate_the_roma_so_much/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/d3hax/why_does_eu... I was amazed at how many of the anti-Roma arguments sounded just like the anti-black arguments you'd find in the early 19th century in the US.
- js2 16y ago
  The word "gypped" is used indiscriminately by the average American as well.
  - ShabbyDoo 16y ago
    As an American, I hadn't even thought about that word's origin. I guess it's no different than saying, "He Jew'ed him down on the price." My wife told the story of a co-worker who was raised in rural America and used "Jew" (the verb form) as a normal part of her vocabulary without ever having considered the inferred stereotypes. Another co-worker who was Jewish politely called her out, and the "Jew-er" at first had trouble even understanding why the term might be disconcerting to others. The rural woman was not an anti-Semite in the same way that I'm not anti-Roma because I occasionally use the word "gypped". I guess that I should proactively note that I'm not in favor of using the word "Jew" as a verb (or as any other part of speech in such a manner).

jessriedel 16y ago

So I can understand the argument for taxi regulation and prohibiting unlicensed taxis: when I hail a taxi for a 5 minutes drive, I don't want to expend resources looking at competitors, checking to make sure the meter is legit, checking proof of insurance, etc. Since most people want the same thing out of a taxi (as opposed to, say, buying a car), it makes sense for a centralized government agency to do some regulating. But what is the rationale for limiting the number of medallions? Why not just allow anyone who wants to become licensed to do so, while charging a fee which covers the cost of the licencing process? The OP's article lists the obvious dangers of completely deregulating, but it doesn't explain the cap on medallions. (Please, no comments about "because the taxi cartels control the government!". I understand the incentives for existing taxis to erect barriers to the market. I'm more interesting in the rationale of those who argue that a limited number of medallions is in the public interest.)

fizx 16y ago
Maybe an extra 5000 cars on the road in the most traffic-dense parts of the city isn't ideal.
- jessriedel 16y ago
  But is that actually an argument that is given? Is there data showing that taxis are a significant contributor to congestion? If this were a real problem, it would be better to estimate the marginal cost to the city for having an extra car on the road for an extra day (or minute or whatever) and charge that. Then, let the market decide how that affects the number of taxis. (Also, if this were true, it would be an argument for charging everyone, not just taxis, to drive in the city.)
scott_s 16y ago
Difficulty in regulating at scale? A license is more than just a badge that means "I paid a fee."
- jessriedel 16y ago
  >Difficulty in regulating at scale? The per-licence cost of regulating should go down with increased scale (unless there's something really surprising I'm not considering). >A license is more than just a badge that means "I paid a fee." I don't understand what you mean here. I said the licence should reflect the cost to the city for doing the regulating. And the regulating should include stuff like ensuring the meters work, checking insurance, etc.

stcredzero 16y ago

Hailing cabs street-side is really only implementing what Ubercab is doing, but with stochastic pre-distribution of roaming service providers. It's an early industrial-revolution way of doing things because back then we didn't have electronic networks. Really, it should be irrelevant in modern countries.