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What makes this journalists blood worth more than all those murdered in Yemen or the victims of SA's overt or covert terrorism?

by ohiovr 8y ago

Illniyar 8y ago
Location and audacity. It was done in another sovereign country, one with string US and European ties, and which isn't currently in civil unrest. Also, they practically took him into their embassy, killed him and then lied about it in the most haphazard way. That represents a massive break from international status quo. Unfortunately getting involved in third-world civil wars and financing terrorist attacks is quite within the status quo.
- madza 8y ago
  Lest we forget. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition This is not a massive break from the international status quo by a any means. The USA and all other nations have operated in a similar manner for a long time with equally gruesome outcomes. If I recall the head of Interpol “disappeared” not long ago, and that little kerfuffle died away right quick. Perhaps the reasons are more mundane. 1. The Saudis got caught out by the Turks with the evidence. Which has been used effectively. The Turks have a lot to gain by seeing the alliance between SA and the US weakened. 2. The senior leadership of SA can be more directly tied to this incident, as opposed to more common case where plausible deniability exists. Rookie mistake. 3. There exists internal opposition to the leadership in the US and SA that find it convenient to escalate the profile of this issue for their own purposes. This will blow over and business as usual will resume shortly.
  - JabavuAdams 8y ago
    The whole point of extraordinary rendition is to remove the target to another country to give some legal cover and plausible (hah) deniability to the subsequent interrogation / torture / what have you. Murdering someone in your embassy (although technically your own sovereign territory) is a new low.
- JabavuAdams 8y ago
  I was wondering why they'd do this in their embassy, instead of just performing a hit. At first I thought it was kind of plausible that they just wanted to kidnap him, but that things escalated in an unscripted way. But ... a friend raised an interesting point -- part of the stink around the Russian assassinations in the UK was that they were done on UK territory, and endangered uninvolved UK citizens. The Saudi embassy is Saudi territory. Seems like splitting hairs, but maybe this factored into their decision to do Kashoggi in the embassy. EDIT> It's just so weird. If you're going to murder someone, you don't invite them over for dinner and do it in your living room, or am I stupid?
SuoDuanDao 8y ago
I think it has to do with the role America has played on the world stage up to now. If you're a beat cop in a rowdy neighbourhood, you can ignore a known criminal so long as they keep their activities discreet. If they commit a violent crime in public, ignoring it undermines people's faith in your ability to do the job.
Nasrudith 8y ago
Aside from the lack of even a remotely plausible excuse for their misdeeds or deniability if you attack journalists literally expect negative coverage from self preservation alone - nobody trades with a guy who "sometimes" eats people. That is putting aside any nobility. Plus there is the "cruel and unusual" aspect. Although the phrase was meant for capricious abuses of power it highlights how evil out of the norm is reacted to more harshly. People are used to shitty things done by militaries and funding violent groups - the definition of a terrorist group had to be very carefully defined to avoid the US being guilty of it themselves under their own laws for instance. Even government assassins don't murder people in their own embassy usually much less so brutally and openly.
siruncledrew 8y ago
That's what makes me a bit cynical about this situation. Maybe it's a "one straw that broke the camel's back" event, but Silicon Valley didn't say shit and gladly accepted Saudi money during the last 3 years when the Saudi government was bombing Yemeni civilians. There's a good portion of the current attitude towards Saudi Arabia that's a PR image play rather than actually giving a shit about whatever the Saudis do to other people in their corner of the world.

What makes this journalists blood worth more than all those murdered in Yemen or the victims of SA's overt or covert terrorism?

by ohiovr 8y ago

What makes this journalists blood worth more than all those murdered in Yemen or the victims of SA's overt or covert terrorism?

Illniyar 8y ago

Location and audacity. It was done in another sovereign country, one with string US and European ties, and which isn't currently in civil unrest. Also, they practically took him into their embassy, killed him and then lied about it in the most haphazard way. That represents a massive break from international status quo. Unfortunately getting involved in third-world civil wars and financing terrorist attacks is quite within the status quo.

madza 8y ago
Lest we forget. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition This is not a massive break from the international status quo by a any means. The USA and all other nations have operated in a similar manner for a long time with equally gruesome outcomes. If I recall the head of Interpol “disappeared” not long ago, and that little kerfuffle died away right quick. Perhaps the reasons are more mundane. 1. The Saudis got caught out by the Turks with the evidence. Which has been used effectively. The Turks have a lot to gain by seeing the alliance between SA and the US weakened. 2. The senior leadership of SA can be more directly tied to this incident, as opposed to more common case where plausible deniability exists. Rookie mistake. 3. There exists internal opposition to the leadership in the US and SA that find it convenient to escalate the profile of this issue for their own purposes. This will blow over and business as usual will resume shortly.
- JabavuAdams 8y ago
  The whole point of extraordinary rendition is to remove the target to another country to give some legal cover and plausible (hah) deniability to the subsequent interrogation / torture / what have you. Murdering someone in your embassy (although technically your own sovereign territory) is a new low.
JabavuAdams 8y ago
I was wondering why they'd do this in their embassy, instead of just performing a hit. At first I thought it was kind of plausible that they just wanted to kidnap him, but that things escalated in an unscripted way. But ... a friend raised an interesting point -- part of the stink around the Russian assassinations in the UK was that they were done on UK territory, and endangered uninvolved UK citizens. The Saudi embassy is Saudi territory. Seems like splitting hairs, but maybe this factored into their decision to do Kashoggi in the embassy. EDIT> It's just so weird. If you're going to murder someone, you don't invite them over for dinner and do it in your living room, or am I stupid?

SuoDuanDao 8y ago

I think it has to do with the role America has played on the world stage up to now. If you're a beat cop in a rowdy neighbourhood, you can ignore a known criminal so long as they keep their activities discreet. If they commit a violent crime in public, ignoring it undermines people's faith in your ability to do the job.

Nasrudith 8y ago

Aside from the lack of even a remotely plausible excuse for their misdeeds or deniability if you attack journalists literally expect negative coverage from self preservation alone - nobody trades with a guy who "sometimes" eats people. That is putting aside any nobility. Plus there is the "cruel and unusual" aspect. Although the phrase was meant for capricious abuses of power it highlights how evil out of the norm is reacted to more harshly. People are used to shitty things done by militaries and funding violent groups - the definition of a terrorist group had to be very carefully defined to avoid the US being guilty of it themselves under their own laws for instance. Even government assassins don't murder people in their own embassy usually much less so brutally and openly.

siruncledrew 8y ago

That's what makes me a bit cynical about this situation. Maybe it's a "one straw that broke the camel's back" event, but Silicon Valley didn't say shit and gladly accepted Saudi money during the last 3 years when the Saudi government was bombing Yemeni civilians. There's a good portion of the current attitude towards Saudi Arabia that's a PR image play rather than actually giving a shit about whatever the Saudis do to other people in their corner of the world.