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If you ever played in an orchestra with a great conductor, you would understand why things like punctuality are important. In fact, it doesn't matter what the

If you ever played in an orchestra with a great conductor, you would understand why things like punctuality are important. In fact, it doesn't matter what the discipline is whether it be punctuality or something else, but the fact that discipline is valued. You might see these things in and of themselves as pointless (and you'd be right), but you'd be ignoring the 2nd and 3rd order effects.

sp4rki 16y ago
Why would you think I don't think punctuality is important? I just say that it isn't an intrinsic measure of professionalism, while performance generally is. If the orchestra case you need to be on time, as to not waste someone else's time. In that case punctuality directly correlates as a rule, while in other cases it doesn't. Again I'm not saying I disagree, I'm saying you're agreeing with me but probably missed the second part of my argument. If by not being punctual you're wasting someone's time, then you're being unprofessional.
Dylanlacey 16y ago
I don't argue that punctuality is unimportant, but I think it's lauded as a virtue far more often then it deserves. It's only a virtue if being late has a negative impact beyond "The department looks empty and the boss' boss judges". Being late to a scheduled meeting is unprofessional. Turning up at 9 instead of 8 because there's really no impact if you do so? Not unprofessional. Expecting someone to turn up at 8 because "I said so"? TOTALLY unprofessional, and a jerky thing to do.
- jorangreef 16y ago
  The point is not that punctuality is a virtue, but that a professional is capable of adhering to certain agreed disciplines, regardless of how important, or virtuous they may or may not be. A professional does not make the mistake of judging these activities for their intrinsic value, but sees them as an opportunity to develop discipline, which is useful and valuable for more important activities. For examples see: the military, professional orchestras, rowing eights, ivy league traditions, and even children keeping piggy banks.
  - Dylanlacey 16y ago
    While I agree that a professional is capable of adhering to certain agreed disciplines, I also think that discipline is a sparing resource and spending it on showing up at a set time for no other reason then being "professional" is a waste of that resource.

sp4rki 16y ago

Why would you think I don't think punctuality is important? I just say that it isn't an intrinsic measure of professionalism, while performance generally is. If the orchestra case you need to be on time, as to not waste someone else's time. In that case punctuality directly correlates as a rule, while in other cases it doesn't. Again I'm not saying I disagree, I'm saying you're agreeing with me but probably missed the second part of my argument. If by not being punctual you're wasting someone's time, then you're being unprofessional.

Dylanlacey 16y ago

I don't argue that punctuality is unimportant, but I think it's lauded as a virtue far more often then it deserves. It's only a virtue if being late has a negative impact beyond "The department looks empty and the boss' boss judges". Being late to a scheduled meeting is unprofessional. Turning up at 9 instead of 8 because there's really no impact if you do so? Not unprofessional. Expecting someone to turn up at 8 because "I said so"? TOTALLY unprofessional, and a jerky thing to do.

jorangreef 16y ago
The point is not that punctuality is a virtue, but that a professional is capable of adhering to certain agreed disciplines, regardless of how important, or virtuous they may or may not be. A professional does not make the mistake of judging these activities for their intrinsic value, but sees them as an opportunity to develop discipline, which is useful and valuable for more important activities. For examples see: the military, professional orchestras, rowing eights, ivy league traditions, and even children keeping piggy banks.
- Dylanlacey 16y ago
  While I agree that a professional is capable of adhering to certain agreed disciplines, I also think that discipline is a sparing resource and spending it on showing up at a set time for no other reason then being "professional" is a waste of that resource.