3 ms·

Sort of - the reality is that with the scale Apple is at, they aren't able to hire enough people anywhere near as smart as Rossmann to work in their stores rep

Sort of - the reality is that with the scale Apple is at, they aren't able to hire enough people anywhere near as smart as Rossmann to work in their stores repairing laptops - he's easily a 100x technician. Absent that, the only way to provide a reliable service is to make it very process-based - Run this procedure to find which of these 5-6 components in the device is most likely faulty, replace it with a new one by following this standard procedure, then run this automated QA test and if it doesn't pass, replace the next most likely component until it passes. It probably costs Apple a lot less to do their warranty/applecare repairs in this way, replacing whole boards at a time, than to try and hire enough people who could do board-level repairs. It does suck for people who are out-of-warranty and have a minor fault like in this case though - and Apple should have a better solution for them. Arguably if it's a minor fault, they should charge a minor fee to fix it even if their solution is replacing a whole component. Apple also seems to be trying to restrict third party repairers (and not just for security-critical components), which is indefensible IMO.

TomMarius 8y ago
How is it indefensible? They're protecting their brand and serving their customers; this approach has actual measurable business value AND value to the customer. I use Apple products (and in turn services) because I can be fairly certain that an aftermarket unit (Macbook) is going to work well. If I didn't know that I'd look for other brands that do exactly what Apple does now - and then I'd buy their phone and use their cloud so it works well with my main device. If Apple stopped doing what they do, a lot of people will start to experience weird issues that didn't happen before - and they will attribute these issues to Apple. Additionally the resale value of Apple gear would go substantially lower and Apple would probably also stop offering free OS. Since I assume that the cost of new device would remain the same, this could actually substantially negatively affect poorer people (to which right to repair would be relevant) - much more than this Apple policy does. As Apple customer, I prefer their approach. Why should anyone else stop me from consuming a service/product however I and the company I buy from like it (and it doesn't hurt anyone) just because it doesn't suit them? Why don't they buy a Lenovo?
- jordanthoms 8y ago
  I'm referring to tactics like Rossmann described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw where US Customs is seizing imports of genuine Apple parts - for laptops they don't repair themselves anymore! I see your point though, there are plenty of untrustworthy third-party repairers.
  - sjwright 8y ago
    This is just the stupidest thing. All Louis had to do is purchase non-genuine third-party laptop batteries that don't have an Apple logo printed on them. He could have his batteries, he could perform the repairs, everyone would be happy. With his complaint he is effectively saying is that trademarks mean shit and anyone can use anyone else's brand whenever they want. It's absurd. And it's a loser case. If he tries to fight Apple, he won't win.
    - jordanthoms 8y ago
      His claim is that the parts have the apple logo on them because they are in fact genuine parts, do you have reason to think he is lying about that?
      - sjwright 8y ago
        "Lous Rossman, on his own reddit account in a comment, says that he commissioned the batteries from a factory in China that was no longer authorized to make those batteries, because likely they lost the bid/contract to do so." https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossmann_admits_to_using_parts_from_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossman...
        sjwright 8y ago
        Louis on the law: "The reason is that, if you are not “authorized” to buy an original part, it is considered counterfeit, regardless of the content of the actual part. The way the law works right now, if I bought five iPhone 5C from the Apple store, flew to China, took the five screens off and shipped them to an unauthorized repair shop in Jacksonville – they would be taken as “counterfeit” for having Apple logos. I personally believe this to be wrong, regardless of what the law says – but it is the world we live in, and the vendors deal with that reality the way they do." And for what it's worth he even acknowledges the possibility that they fit his personal definition of counterfeit: "This is Chinese market, which is known for counterfeits. It is possible something is fake. This is also an industry where everything is done to place roadblocks to people like me getting parts - I realize he is jumping through hoops and could've made a mistake. Since I have not seen the box prior to it being confiscated, there’s no way for me to tell what is in there..." https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossmann_admits_to_using_parts_from_a/e85aahb/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossman...
43920 8y ago
I don't have particularly strong evidence of this, but I think Apple might actually be doing component-level repair on at least some of their boards. Last time I got my computer repaired by Apple, they said in the repair agreement that they might use new or refurbished parts, and the invoice said it was repaired by "CSAT Solutions". Looking at this company's website, they state that they do logic board repairs [0], and they have a bunch of job openings for "component level trouble shooting (capacitor, resistors, etc. )" [1]. [0] http://csat-solutions.com/Services.html#MLB http://csat-solutions.com/Services.html#MLB [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/houston-tx-mlb-test-operator-jobs-SRCH_IL.0,10_IC1140171_KO11,28.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/houston-tx-mlb-test-operator-j...

TomMarius 8y ago

How is it indefensible? They're protecting their brand and serving their customers; this approach has actual measurable business value AND value to the customer. I use Apple products (and in turn services) because I can be fairly certain that an aftermarket unit (Macbook) is going to work well. If I didn't know that I'd look for other brands that do exactly what Apple does now - and then I'd buy their phone and use their cloud so it works well with my main device. If Apple stopped doing what they do, a lot of people will start to experience weird issues that didn't happen before - and they will attribute these issues to Apple. Additionally the resale value of Apple gear would go substantially lower and Apple would probably also stop offering free OS. Since I assume that the cost of new device would remain the same, this could actually substantially negatively affect poorer people (to which right to repair would be relevant) - much more than this Apple policy does. As Apple customer, I prefer their approach. Why should anyone else stop me from consuming a service/product however I and the company I buy from like it (and it doesn't hurt anyone) just because it doesn't suit them? Why don't they buy a Lenovo?

jordanthoms 8y ago
I'm referring to tactics like Rossmann described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw where US Customs is seizing imports of genuine Apple parts - for laptops they don't repair themselves anymore! I see your point though, there are plenty of untrustworthy third-party repairers.
- sjwright 8y ago
  This is just the stupidest thing. All Louis had to do is purchase non-genuine third-party laptop batteries that don't have an Apple logo printed on them. He could have his batteries, he could perform the repairs, everyone would be happy. With his complaint he is effectively saying is that trademarks mean shit and anyone can use anyone else's brand whenever they want. It's absurd. And it's a loser case. If he tries to fight Apple, he won't win.
  - jordanthoms 8y ago
    His claim is that the parts have the apple logo on them because they are in fact genuine parts, do you have reason to think he is lying about that?
    - sjwright 8y ago
      "Lous Rossman, on his own reddit account in a comment, says that he commissioned the batteries from a factory in China that was no longer authorized to make those batteries, because likely they lost the bid/contract to do so." https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossmann_admits_to_using_parts_from_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossman...
      - sjwright 8y ago
        Louis on the law: "The reason is that, if you are not “authorized” to buy an original part, it is considered counterfeit, regardless of the content of the actual part. The way the law works right now, if I bought five iPhone 5C from the Apple store, flew to China, took the five screens off and shipped them to an unauthorized repair shop in Jacksonville – they would be taken as “counterfeit” for having Apple logos. I personally believe this to be wrong, regardless of what the law says – but it is the world we live in, and the vendors deal with that reality the way they do." And for what it's worth he even acknowledges the possibility that they fit his personal definition of counterfeit: "This is Chinese market, which is known for counterfeits. It is possible something is fake. This is also an industry where everything is done to place roadblocks to people like me getting parts - I realize he is jumping through hoops and could've made a mistake. Since I have not seen the box prior to it being confiscated, there’s no way for me to tell what is in there..." https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossmann_admits_to_using_parts_from_a/e85aahb/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossman...

43920 8y ago

I don't have particularly strong evidence of this, but I think Apple might actually be doing component-level repair on at least some of their boards. Last time I got my computer repaired by Apple, they said in the repair agreement that they might use new or refurbished parts, and the invoice said it was repaired by "CSAT Solutions". Looking at this company's website, they state that they do logic board repairs [0], and they have a bunch of job openings for "component level trouble shooting (capacitor, resistors, etc. )" [1]. [0] http://csat-solutions.com/Services.html#MLB http://csat-solutions.com/Services.html#MLB [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/houston-tx-mlb-test-operator-jobs-SRCH_IL.0,10_IC1140171_KO11,28.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/houston-tx-mlb-test-operator-j...