8 ms·

I think there is a pattern across both UberCan and AirBnb where both are facing opposition from existing, regulated industries (taxi services and hotels respect

by sriramk 16y ago

I think there is a pattern across both UberCan and AirBnb where both are facing opposition from existing, regulated industries (taxi services and hotels respectively). Among all the posturing essentially meant to protect their existing businesses, I do think they have one valid point - that they both skirt around laws and regs in place. Though a lot of these laws and regulations are outdated/driven by special interests, some of them are in place for a reason. For example, not having hotels in residential areas so that neighbors aren't disturbed. Or having safety training for drivers of cabs. I do worry about the risk that UberCab/AirBnb could cause to its users (or others indirectly impacted). In both cases, the existing industries aren't doing themselves any favors. The argument around existing dispatchers maybe not making a living anymore - if someone else provides a better service than I do, it isn't their fault if I can't make money anymore. Reading the comments on the cab drivers' blog [1] is a bit sad. One of the commenters recognizes how good Ubercab is but uses that as an argument on why they should be shut down, instead of going "Hey, what if we started doing some of the things they do and improve?" http://phantomcabdriverphites.blogspot.com/2010/09/tac-iii-part-2.html http://phantomcabdriverphites.blogspot.com/2010/09/tac-iii-p...

pavel_lishin 16y ago
The best argument I've heard against AirBNB is that some people are buying up property and basically setting up hovels that they're renting out. Unsafe, unclean, miserable places to live. But hell, I've stayed in shitty motels where the only thing keeping the carpets glued to the floor was the roach shit.
- callmeed 16y ago
  I think review systems will weed out the crappy, unclean places. The best argument I've heard is the liability issue. Americans are sue-happy. One slip in the shower or bad car accident and then what? Are AirBnB and UberCab totally immune from litigation?
  - smackfu 16y ago
    Yeah, just need one sap to suffer through a bad night and write that bad review. Hope it isn't you.
- _delirium 16y ago
  That's the main reason I don't even bother to look at AirBnB for the handful of cities where it's particularly bad (NYC and London mainly). If they made a better attempt to distinguish people genuinely renting out their own house/apartment from black-market businessmen running unlicensed hotels, I'd have much more confidence. For that matter, I'd like to be able to easily exclude licensed hotels too, some of which try to list themselves as if they were apartments for rent.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    I've rented one room via AirBNB, and it was fantastic. I'm renting another one in a few weeks. I'm not a poweruser of the system, but it seems like it's fairly easy to figure out what's legit and what's not - look at reviews and photos. I guess I don't really know what I would do if I arrived and the place was completely not as advertised. Probably hop on my iPhone, figure out who to call at AirBNB, and see about getting my money refunded and their account shut down.
    - _delirium 16y ago
      In which cities? Everywhere I've looked except NYC it's been fine; NYC specifically is the place that seems to be a mess (I've heard London is similar, but never looked). The review system does weed out some of them. If you look for rooms in NYC, there's a lot with negative reviews along the lines of, "thought this was a spare room, but turned out to be a hostel". I don't have much confidence that the reviews have caught all of them, though.
      - pavel_lishin 16y ago
        I could have gotten lucky. I've only used it in NYC once so far, and just registered for another place. And it seems that all it would take is one negative review. If I see a "bait and switch" type of commentary, I'll avoid that place for sure. I suppose people could game this - mutually book each other's place, eat AirBNB's take as cost of business, and just vote each other up.
ramanujan 16y ago
Any new product is never better in all aspects, and usually can't yet fund the fleet of lobbyists that existing players have. Regulations are primarily a tool of established businesses which they wield like a sword when all else fails, kind of like lawsuits. And a disruptive newcomer which reduces municipal tax revenue is sure to be in the gunsights, because almost every new business can become "illegal" at a politician's whim. It's incumbents of both types (political and business) against the newcomer, except they aren't actually offering a better service but rather pointing a gun at the interloper. Where is the statistical evidence that Ubercab and AirBnB are actually less safe than the alternative? Moreover, we let people choose to use motorbikes OR cars; why should the "less safe" alternative always be illegal? Sometimes other attributes (convenience, speed, price) mean that you'll settle for three rather than four nines in safety.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  >Where is the statistical evidence that Ubercab and AirBnB are actually less safe than the alternative? I think it's a bit premature to ask for this kind of statistical evidence no? Are these companies old enough to have any useful, relevant statistics?
cubix 16y ago
Or having safety training for drivers of cabs. If only that were true. Taxi drivers are among the most reckless drivers in my city, and pretty well every other major city in North America that I've visited. If there is any training, it is not taken too seriously.
- pierrefar 16y ago
  every other major city in North America Why stop at North America? It's worldwide. BUT: The only good thing about taxis in London is that they need to pass a test called The Knowledge (refs below) which means they are able to figure out the best route to anywhere in London on the fly. And if you think this is easy, it's not: the structure of the brains of taxi drivers is actually bigger in the part responsible for spacial memory, the discovery of which led the researchers winning the Ig Nobel prize. Refs: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/taxisandprivatehire/1412.aspx http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/taxisandprivatehir... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#The_Knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7613621.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7613621.stm http://improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2003 http://improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2003
  - bravura 16y ago
    A more comical interpretation, arguing that this test leads these cabbies to have mutant brains: http://everything2.com/title/Mutant+brains+of+London+cabbies http://everything2.com/title/Mutant+brains+of+London+cabbies
  - michael_dorfman 16y ago
    The only good thing about taxis in London is that they need to pass a test called The Knowledge (refs below) which means they are able to figure out the best route to anywhere in London on the fly. HNers who are into Sci-Fi ought to check out Will Self's "The Book of Dave", which is funny, brilliant, and (in large part) about a future post-apocalyptic society which makes a religion of "The Knowledge."
  - 16y ago
jbooth 16y ago
And even if some of the regulations they have to face are outdated, stupid, in need of reform.. well, they still can't just break the law. Existing hotels/cabs follow the laws, including the stupid ones. We should fix the laws.

by sriramk 16y ago

pavel_lishin 16y ago

The best argument I've heard against AirBNB is that some people are buying up property and basically setting up hovels that they're renting out. Unsafe, unclean, miserable places to live. But hell, I've stayed in shitty motels where the only thing keeping the carpets glued to the floor was the roach shit.

callmeed 16y ago
I think review systems will weed out the crappy, unclean places. The best argument I've heard is the liability issue. Americans are sue-happy. One slip in the shower or bad car accident and then what? Are AirBnB and UberCab totally immune from litigation?
- smackfu 16y ago
  Yeah, just need one sap to suffer through a bad night and write that bad review. Hope it isn't you.
_delirium 16y ago
That's the main reason I don't even bother to look at AirBnB for the handful of cities where it's particularly bad (NYC and London mainly). If they made a better attempt to distinguish people genuinely renting out their own house/apartment from black-market businessmen running unlicensed hotels, I'd have much more confidence. For that matter, I'd like to be able to easily exclude licensed hotels too, some of which try to list themselves as if they were apartments for rent.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  I've rented one room via AirBNB, and it was fantastic. I'm renting another one in a few weeks. I'm not a poweruser of the system, but it seems like it's fairly easy to figure out what's legit and what's not - look at reviews and photos. I guess I don't really know what I would do if I arrived and the place was completely not as advertised. Probably hop on my iPhone, figure out who to call at AirBNB, and see about getting my money refunded and their account shut down.
  - _delirium 16y ago
    In which cities? Everywhere I've looked except NYC it's been fine; NYC specifically is the place that seems to be a mess (I've heard London is similar, but never looked). The review system does weed out some of them. If you look for rooms in NYC, there's a lot with negative reviews along the lines of, "thought this was a spare room, but turned out to be a hostel". I don't have much confidence that the reviews have caught all of them, though.
    - pavel_lishin 16y ago
      I could have gotten lucky. I've only used it in NYC once so far, and just registered for another place. And it seems that all it would take is one negative review. If I see a "bait and switch" type of commentary, I'll avoid that place for sure. I suppose people could game this - mutually book each other's place, eat AirBNB's take as cost of business, and just vote each other up.

ramanujan 16y ago

Any new product is never better in all aspects, and usually can't yet fund the fleet of lobbyists that existing players have. Regulations are primarily a tool of established businesses which they wield like a sword when all else fails, kind of like lawsuits. And a disruptive newcomer which reduces municipal tax revenue is sure to be in the gunsights, because almost every new business can become "illegal" at a politician's whim. It's incumbents of both types (political and business) against the newcomer, except they aren't actually offering a better service but rather pointing a gun at the interloper. Where is the statistical evidence that Ubercab and AirBnB are actually less safe than the alternative? Moreover, we let people choose to use motorbikes OR cars; why should the "less safe" alternative always be illegal? Sometimes other attributes (convenience, speed, price) mean that you'll settle for three rather than four nines in safety.

loewenskind 16y ago
>Where is the statistical evidence that Ubercab and AirBnB are actually less safe than the alternative? I think it's a bit premature to ask for this kind of statistical evidence no? Are these companies old enough to have any useful, relevant statistics?

cubix 16y ago

Or having safety training for drivers of cabs. If only that were true. Taxi drivers are among the most reckless drivers in my city, and pretty well every other major city in North America that I've visited. If there is any training, it is not taken too seriously.

pierrefar 16y ago
every other major city in North America Why stop at North America? It's worldwide. BUT: The only good thing about taxis in London is that they need to pass a test called The Knowledge (refs below) which means they are able to figure out the best route to anywhere in London on the fly. And if you think this is easy, it's not: the structure of the brains of taxi drivers is actually bigger in the part responsible for spacial memory, the discovery of which led the researchers winning the Ig Nobel prize. Refs: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/taxisandprivatehire/1412.aspx http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/taxisandprivatehir... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#The_Knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7613621.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7613621.stm http://improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2003 http://improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2003
- bravura 16y ago
  A more comical interpretation, arguing that this test leads these cabbies to have mutant brains: http://everything2.com/title/Mutant+brains+of+London+cabbies http://everything2.com/title/Mutant+brains+of+London+cabbies
- michael_dorfman 16y ago
  The only good thing about taxis in London is that they need to pass a test called The Knowledge (refs below) which means they are able to figure out the best route to anywhere in London on the fly. HNers who are into Sci-Fi ought to check out Will Self's "The Book of Dave", which is funny, brilliant, and (in large part) about a future post-apocalyptic society which makes a religion of "The Knowledge."
- 16y ago

jbooth 16y ago

And even if some of the regulations they have to face are outdated, stupid, in need of reform.. well, they still can't just break the law. Existing hotels/cabs follow the laws, including the stupid ones. We should fix the laws.