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Apple lost my trust with their maps. They were willing to push a bad product to their customers as a negotiating card against Google.

Terretta 8y ago
As a self-determination card. If you're thinking in 'customer journey' terms (and I don't just mean maps), you don't want anyone holding segments hostage.
dijit 8y ago
I’m European, and before apple maps; Siri couldn’t search for businesses or places of interest. “Sorry, I can only look for places and businesses in the US and when using US English”.[0] Sure. There were growing pains, but being out from under the thumb of google is a good thing. Both _my_ user experience and my privacy as a customer has improved. [0]: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o_e4qV2dRCdQY1aAFdEQW9Lw https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o_e4qV2dRCdQY1aAFdEQW9Lw
mcny 8y ago
> Apple lost my trust with their maps. They were willing to push a bad product to their customers as a negotiating card against Google. I don't know the details but I assume it was about money. If I ran Apple, I wouldn't be comfortable displaying ads on an app that is 1. installed for all users by default 2. the user cannot uninstall. I am OK with a built-in app doing data collection for ads provided it only starts collecting said data after informed consent. However, displaying ads from Google's ad network would hurt me in at least two ways: 1. it ruins the default experience for the users (I think Google agrees that ads are bad for user experience or it wouldn't have things like YouTube Red or soon to be called YouTube Premium) 2. it ruins my relationship with advertisers who now have to go through Google to reach my customers. Google, I assume, is also unwilling to provide Google Maps free of charge without 1. contributing data back to make Google Maps better (and serve better, higher paying ads) 2. allowing Apple to serve as the sole ad exchange for Google Maps for iOS Once again, these are just my guesses. I know nothing about the industry. I thought it was strange that advertisers don't simply trust Google when it comes to data about advertising and want some kind of auditing (can you imagine yet another tracking script that phones home to some consulting company that is charged with keeping Google "honest"?) However, the recent reports that Facebook lied to advertisers shows that the concern is real (if not for Google but at least for some other people). Anyway, what I have learned is that the world of advertising is built on distrust. My understanding of advertising is very limited. It seems like the industry thinks there is value in advertising that does not immediately lead to user action like a purchase. The advertiser gets value out of an ad simply being displayed even if the user has no intention of eating a McDonalds or getting an Uber at this very moment. The problem I can't wrap my head around is how does McDonalds know if an ad display impression is legitimate and how does Google know that all legitimate ad display impressions get counted and paid for without using a third party arbiter (an arbiter is unacceptable to me if I were Google)? I'd love corrections if I made any bad assumptions. Thanks
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  It was about turn-by-turn directions. Google had them, Apple wanted them, and Google knew that keeping it exclusive to Google Maps was a big competitive advantage. https://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switch https://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_swit... I've read other more recent accounts that also claim Google wanted to collect more location data from iOS users in order to license their scalable vector map tiles to Apple, but couldn't find the link.
  - wlesieutre 8y ago
    Here's an article with a bit more detail https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/11/apple-maps-google-iphone-users https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/11/apple-map...
    - mcny 8y ago
      Thanks to you and the grand parent comment. This shows the power of defaults, right? It makes sense in this light that Google is willing to pay a billion plus dollars to Apple every year to be the default search. I'm still amazed by these big numbers though because I just can't wrap my head around them.
- janekm 8y ago
  It may have been about money, or because Apple no longer felt comfortable sharing all of their customers' location data with Google anytime they used the built-in maps app. I don't believe the option of displaying ads was ever considered. Honi soit qui mal y pense...
simonh 8y ago
Unlike Google, Samsung, Microsoft or Amazon who have never rushed a product to market before it was really ready.... er. The thing is, Apple Maps was a screwup yes, but it's never been a paid feature and you could just install Google maps if you wanted to. I would agree that we do generally expect more from Apple, but as an iPhone owner that just stuck with other better free options anyway, I have difficulty working up any strong emotions about it.
Aloha 8y ago
I've used apple maps from Day 1 - I've honestly never really had an issue with it - other than very early, it had huge issues with finding addresses - they fixed that within the first year. No mapping application should, can, or will be 100% accurate its up to you as the user to ensure the directions given are sane and reasonable.
- jplayer01 8y ago
  I assume you live in the US or you wouldn't be saying that. It's essentially unusable in Germany. As important privacy may be, Apple Maps simply isn't a competitor in Europe. OSM might be. Apple isn't.
  - toxik 8y ago
    As long as we’re doing anecdata: Apple Maps is leaps and bounds better in the archipelago of Stockholm, Sweden. Google Maps is basically impossible to navigate with in a kayak. In Stockholm urban area it’s about the same, but the Apple Maps UI is anecdotally easier to use (my mom being the test subject)
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      This is fantastic. Do you get any different types of direction when on the water? I’m imagining the head scratching when a feature request comes in for tide and wind would seem helpful to be incorporated into travel time.
      - toxik 8y ago
        I mean, of course they didn't design Apple Maps for seafaring. It would be super useful though to get local wind speeds estimates, and directions -- and in particular predicted wave heights! Nothing to get the blood going like meter-high waves on the outer coast. Do or die kind of deal.
briandear 8y ago
And the guy in charge of that got fired. Apple held itself accountable for that mistake. Meanwhile at Google, they continue to double down on privacy-hostile business practices.

Terretta 8y ago

As a self-determination card. If you're thinking in 'customer journey' terms (and I don't just mean maps), you don't want anyone holding segments hostage.

dijit 8y ago

I’m European, and before apple maps; Siri couldn’t search for businesses or places of interest. “Sorry, I can only look for places and businesses in the US and when using US English”.[0] Sure. There were growing pains, but being out from under the thumb of google is a good thing. Both _my_ user experience and my privacy as a customer has improved. [0]: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o_e4qV2dRCdQY1aAFdEQW9Lw https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o_e4qV2dRCdQY1aAFdEQW9Lw

mcny 8y ago

> Apple lost my trust with their maps. They were willing to push a bad product to their customers as a negotiating card against Google. I don't know the details but I assume it was about money. If I ran Apple, I wouldn't be comfortable displaying ads on an app that is 1. installed for all users by default 2. the user cannot uninstall. I am OK with a built-in app doing data collection for ads provided it only starts collecting said data after informed consent. However, displaying ads from Google's ad network would hurt me in at least two ways: 1. it ruins the default experience for the users (I think Google agrees that ads are bad for user experience or it wouldn't have things like YouTube Red or soon to be called YouTube Premium) 2. it ruins my relationship with advertisers who now have to go through Google to reach my customers. Google, I assume, is also unwilling to provide Google Maps free of charge without 1. contributing data back to make Google Maps better (and serve better, higher paying ads) 2. allowing Apple to serve as the sole ad exchange for Google Maps for iOS Once again, these are just my guesses. I know nothing about the industry. I thought it was strange that advertisers don't simply trust Google when it comes to data about advertising and want some kind of auditing (can you imagine yet another tracking script that phones home to some consulting company that is charged with keeping Google "honest"?) However, the recent reports that Facebook lied to advertisers shows that the concern is real (if not for Google but at least for some other people). Anyway, what I have learned is that the world of advertising is built on distrust. My understanding of advertising is very limited. It seems like the industry thinks there is value in advertising that does not immediately lead to user action like a purchase. The advertiser gets value out of an ad simply being displayed even if the user has no intention of eating a McDonalds or getting an Uber at this very moment. The problem I can't wrap my head around is how does McDonalds know if an ad display impression is legitimate and how does Google know that all legitimate ad display impressions get counted and paid for without using a third party arbiter (an arbiter is unacceptable to me if I were Google)? I'd love corrections if I made any bad assumptions. Thanks

wlesieutre 8y ago
It was about turn-by-turn directions. Google had them, Apple wanted them, and Google knew that keeping it exclusive to Google Maps was a big competitive advantage. https://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switch https://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_swit... I've read other more recent accounts that also claim Google wanted to collect more location data from iOS users in order to license their scalable vector map tiles to Apple, but couldn't find the link.
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  Here's an article with a bit more detail https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/11/apple-maps-google-iphone-users https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/11/apple-map...
  - mcny 8y ago
    Thanks to you and the grand parent comment. This shows the power of defaults, right? It makes sense in this light that Google is willing to pay a billion plus dollars to Apple every year to be the default search. I'm still amazed by these big numbers though because I just can't wrap my head around them.
janekm 8y ago
It may have been about money, or because Apple no longer felt comfortable sharing all of their customers' location data with Google anytime they used the built-in maps app. I don't believe the option of displaying ads was ever considered. Honi soit qui mal y pense...

simonh 8y ago

Unlike Google, Samsung, Microsoft or Amazon who have never rushed a product to market before it was really ready.... er. The thing is, Apple Maps was a screwup yes, but it's never been a paid feature and you could just install Google maps if you wanted to. I would agree that we do generally expect more from Apple, but as an iPhone owner that just stuck with other better free options anyway, I have difficulty working up any strong emotions about it.

Aloha 8y ago

I've used apple maps from Day 1 - I've honestly never really had an issue with it - other than very early, it had huge issues with finding addresses - they fixed that within the first year. No mapping application should, can, or will be 100% accurate its up to you as the user to ensure the directions given are sane and reasonable.

jplayer01 8y ago
I assume you live in the US or you wouldn't be saying that. It's essentially unusable in Germany. As important privacy may be, Apple Maps simply isn't a competitor in Europe. OSM might be. Apple isn't.
- toxik 8y ago
  As long as we’re doing anecdata: Apple Maps is leaps and bounds better in the archipelago of Stockholm, Sweden. Google Maps is basically impossible to navigate with in a kayak. In Stockholm urban area it’s about the same, but the Apple Maps UI is anecdotally easier to use (my mom being the test subject)
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    This is fantastic. Do you get any different types of direction when on the water? I’m imagining the head scratching when a feature request comes in for tide and wind would seem helpful to be incorporated into travel time.
    - toxik 8y ago
      I mean, of course they didn't design Apple Maps for seafaring. It would be super useful though to get local wind speeds estimates, and directions -- and in particular predicted wave heights! Nothing to get the blood going like meter-high waves on the outer coast. Do or die kind of deal.

briandear 8y ago

And the guy in charge of that got fired. Apple held itself accountable for that mistake. Meanwhile at Google, they continue to double down on privacy-hostile business practices.