4 ms·

From the OP > Companies extend the BSD OSs with proprietary additions, then abandon the work and it gets lost. With Linux, everyone is forced to play nice and

by lmaximus1983 8y ago

From the OP > Companies extend the BSD OSs with proprietary additions, then abandon the work and it gets lost. With Linux, everyone is forced to play nice and release under the GPL, and the work gets to live as long as people value it.

MaxBarraclough 8y ago
Yes, you're reading me right, but I skipped over the question of software which is never released publicly - mmt is correct that the GPL does not require public release of works, instead it prevents you from releasing the binaries while withholding the source. 'Secret' purely internal use of modified GPL software is not a violation - if the modified software is never distributed publicly, there's no issue. (The Affero GPL licence is different in that regard, and was developed as a response to the software-as-a-service trend, but we're discussing the plain old GPL.) Imperfect enforcement is a valid point, but the terms of the GPL are effective at least some of the time. Major technology companies do not want copyright scandals, even if plenty of fly-by-night companies are willing to risk it.
- lmaximus1983 8y ago
  To preface the rest of my response. One of my points why the GPL isn't magic is that developers will just "steal" code if is easier and most companies don't bother checking whether the code is violating licenses when supplying to a third party. > Yes, you're reading me right, but I skipped over the question of software which is never released publicly - mmt is correct that the GPL does not require public release of works, instead it prevents you from releasing the binaries while withholding the source. The fact it doesn't prevent you from doing that. It only really prevents large companies that people are watching. Violations happen all the time. They just happen on smaller GPL projects. > 'Secret' purely internal use of modified GPL software is not a violation - if the modified software is never distributed publicly, there's no issue. The impression I get is that GPL advocates like yourself seem to think that the unwashed developers that work on proprietary code don't understand the GPL and have to be constantly told how a software license works. You aren't an enlightened individual because you understand a software license. I understand the license and the arguments about it just fine. There is an issue with stuff not going back to upstream. If a defect fix only happens in downstream that is generic enough that it should benefit everyone then only downstream benefits, this things don't get contributed back and there is no improvement of upstream. > Imperfect enforcement is a valid point, but the terms of the GPL are effective at least some of the time. Major technology companies do not want copyright scandals, even if plenty of fly-by-night companies are willing to risk it. The flyby night companies as you put it are the majority, not the minority. If it isn't a big project most companies won't get found out. Again GPL doesn't magically make people contribute back, which was my original disagreement with your comment.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > Again GPL doesn't magically make people contribute back, That's my understanding, as well, but that was never asserted, only "play nice", (re-)"release under the GPL", and "gets to live as long as people value it" as you were able to quote upthread. This seems like contributing forward, not back, or downstream, not upstream. The eventual effect, for publically-released software, usually ends up being an upstream contribution, but that's not automatic. I'm not an advocating any particular license, but it does seem like you're responding to a strawman that nobody in this subthread (GPL advocate or not) has argued.
    - lmaximus1983 8y ago
      This is classic. I've been around the block mate. Apparently I am responding to a strawman after the OP actually replied and said my assessment of what they said was correct. This is why I dislike speaking to the FSF crowd. It is much like a religion (as far as I am concerned).
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- mmt 8y ago
  > 'Secret' purely internal use of modified GPL software is not a violation - if the modified software is never distributed publicly, there's no issue. As the parent pointed out, purely-internal isn't what he meant. Distribution can be non-public, which is distribution nonetheless. Such distribution would require availability of source, but that availability wouldn't be public, if the original distribution wasn't public. The parent seems to be focusing on "theft" (GPL violation) by relatively-unknown companies, which didn't necessarily occur. It's plausible that it did, but, even if the violation were corrected, since that correction doesn't require public release of source code, is likely irrelevant to the overall discussion. You seem to be focusing only on publically-released software, which may or may not be the majority (by whatever measure). I have no "side" in this, just trying to understand the points, which I've failed to grasp. Are you talk past each other?
  - lmaximus1983 8y ago
    The event did occur. I saw the source with my own eyes. The point that you keep on ignoring is that the OP said "companies have to contribute back". One of my points is that they don't even do it though they legally should. License arguments wasn't the point of my response. The point is that people will abuse goodwill and pretending that it doesn't happen is naive.
    - mmt 8y ago
      > The event did occur. I saw the source with my own eyes. You didn't say so, and, even now, you're only implicitly saying there was a GPL violation. The details are important, in order to further understanding. > The point that you keep on ignoring is that the OP said "companies have to contribute back". I'm pretty sure I'm not ignoring it, because it didn't happen. That's likely the source of my confusion. You've certainly said so repeatedly, but I'm missing where anyone else in the conversation has said so (hence my thinking it's a strawman). > One of my points is that they don't even do it though they legally should. This does sound like you are, again, saying there are circumstances where contributing "back" is legally required, which is the assertion that prompted my own original response. I don't believe those circumstances ever exist. The only obligation is providing (contributing) source code forward. Only when "forward" is the public at large does that end up being, as a side effect, "back". > The point is that people will abuse goodwill and pretending that it doesn't happen is naive. I doubt anyone here is actually naive enough to believe it never happens, but there may be a belief that it's rare or exceptional. Without large-sample-size evidence, this can be short-circuited to the usual cynicism vs. "people are basically good" argument.

MaxBarraclough 8y ago

Yes, you're reading me right, but I skipped over the question of software which is never released publicly - mmt is correct that the GPL does not require public release of works, instead it prevents you from releasing the binaries while withholding the source. 'Secret' purely internal use of modified GPL software is not a violation - if the modified software is never distributed publicly, there's no issue. (The Affero GPL licence is different in that regard, and was developed as a response to the software-as-a-service trend, but we're discussing the plain old GPL.) Imperfect enforcement is a valid point, but the terms of the GPL are effective at least some of the time. Major technology companies do not want copyright scandals, even if plenty of fly-by-night companies are willing to risk it.

lmaximus1983 8y ago
To preface the rest of my response. One of my points why the GPL isn't magic is that developers will just "steal" code if is easier and most companies don't bother checking whether the code is violating licenses when supplying to a third party. > Yes, you're reading me right, but I skipped over the question of software which is never released publicly - mmt is correct that the GPL does not require public release of works, instead it prevents you from releasing the binaries while withholding the source. The fact it doesn't prevent you from doing that. It only really prevents large companies that people are watching. Violations happen all the time. They just happen on smaller GPL projects. > 'Secret' purely internal use of modified GPL software is not a violation - if the modified software is never distributed publicly, there's no issue. The impression I get is that GPL advocates like yourself seem to think that the unwashed developers that work on proprietary code don't understand the GPL and have to be constantly told how a software license works. You aren't an enlightened individual because you understand a software license. I understand the license and the arguments about it just fine. There is an issue with stuff not going back to upstream. If a defect fix only happens in downstream that is generic enough that it should benefit everyone then only downstream benefits, this things don't get contributed back and there is no improvement of upstream. > Imperfect enforcement is a valid point, but the terms of the GPL are effective at least some of the time. Major technology companies do not want copyright scandals, even if plenty of fly-by-night companies are willing to risk it. The flyby night companies as you put it are the majority, not the minority. If it isn't a big project most companies won't get found out. Again GPL doesn't magically make people contribute back, which was my original disagreement with your comment.
- mmt 8y ago
  > Again GPL doesn't magically make people contribute back, That's my understanding, as well, but that was never asserted, only "play nice", (re-)"release under the GPL", and "gets to live as long as people value it" as you were able to quote upthread. This seems like contributing forward, not back, or downstream, not upstream. The eventual effect, for publically-released software, usually ends up being an upstream contribution, but that's not automatic. I'm not an advocating any particular license, but it does seem like you're responding to a strawman that nobody in this subthread (GPL advocate or not) has argued.
  - lmaximus1983 8y ago
    This is classic. I've been around the block mate. Apparently I am responding to a strawman after the OP actually replied and said my assessment of what they said was correct. This is why I dislike speaking to the FSF crowd. It is much like a religion (as far as I am concerned).
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
mmt 8y ago
> 'Secret' purely internal use of modified GPL software is not a violation - if the modified software is never distributed publicly, there's no issue. As the parent pointed out, purely-internal isn't what he meant. Distribution can be non-public, which is distribution nonetheless. Such distribution would require availability of source, but that availability wouldn't be public, if the original distribution wasn't public. The parent seems to be focusing on "theft" (GPL violation) by relatively-unknown companies, which didn't necessarily occur. It's plausible that it did, but, even if the violation were corrected, since that correction doesn't require public release of source code, is likely irrelevant to the overall discussion. You seem to be focusing only on publically-released software, which may or may not be the majority (by whatever measure). I have no "side" in this, just trying to understand the points, which I've failed to grasp. Are you talk past each other?
- lmaximus1983 8y ago
  The event did occur. I saw the source with my own eyes. The point that you keep on ignoring is that the OP said "companies have to contribute back". One of my points is that they don't even do it though they legally should. License arguments wasn't the point of my response. The point is that people will abuse goodwill and pretending that it doesn't happen is naive.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > The event did occur. I saw the source with my own eyes. You didn't say so, and, even now, you're only implicitly saying there was a GPL violation. The details are important, in order to further understanding. > The point that you keep on ignoring is that the OP said "companies have to contribute back". I'm pretty sure I'm not ignoring it, because it didn't happen. That's likely the source of my confusion. You've certainly said so repeatedly, but I'm missing where anyone else in the conversation has said so (hence my thinking it's a strawman). > One of my points is that they don't even do it though they legally should. This does sound like you are, again, saying there are circumstances where contributing "back" is legally required, which is the assertion that prompted my own original response. I don't believe those circumstances ever exist. The only obligation is providing (contributing) source code forward. Only when "forward" is the public at large does that end up being, as a side effect, "back". > The point is that people will abuse goodwill and pretending that it doesn't happen is naive. I doubt anyone here is actually naive enough to believe it never happens, but there may be a belief that it's rare or exceptional. Without large-sample-size evidence, this can be short-circuited to the usual cynicism vs. "people are basically good" argument.