5 ms·

I realise this is beside the point of the article, but gas distribution seems like an obsolete and dangerous technology to me. For cooking, induction, for heat

I realise this is beside the point of the article, but gas distribution seems like an obsolete and dangerous technology to me. For cooking, induction, for heating, heat pumps.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jzwinck 8y ago
Induction stoves are unpleasant and ineffective to cook on, not to mention inefficient. And if you want to use a wok, well, you can't. They are definitely better in appealing to first time buyers who may not know or care about their shortcomings. They look great and are easy to clean. But if you are into cooking, gas wins.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  > Induction stoves are unpleasant and ineffective to cook on, not to mention inefficient. And if you want to use a wok, well, you can't. With induction, ~90% of the energy from the electricity is used for cooking while only 40% of energy is used using a gas cooktop. Induction is more efficient, and you can use a wok if one is purchased that is designed for use with induction. Induction units can also regulate themselves based on feedback from the cooking device on the receiving end. Induction is arguably superior to cooking with gas. https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-induction-ranges/pros-and-cons-of-induction-cooktops-and-ranges/ https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-induction-ranges/pr... https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better-cooking-through-science https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better... > On almost all counts, induction is faster, safer, cleaner, and more efficient than either gas or electric. And yes, we've done exhaustive oven testing in our labs to support that claim.
  - jzwinck 8y ago
    What about the 45% efficiency of a natural gas power plant? Yes induction is efficient if you only look at the part inside your house. But most of the losses are outside your house. If you live in a place with advanced wind or solar power like South Korea then electric probably is more efficient.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      The electric grid tilts cleaner every year. Your stove will burn natural gas forever. A combined cycle natural gas generator is upwards of 50% efficient, already more efficient than your gas stove. It's wasteful to spend money on gas infrastructure when it's clear electrical distribution is the future of home energy use. Infrastructure dollars are already in short supply. Just my two cents. EDIT: You can stockpile energy with batteries, which is the likely outcome based on how much battery manufacturing capacity is coming online to build hundreds of thousands of EVs a year (which are also a great buffer for renewables and electricity in general).
      - PhantomGremlin 8y ago
        It's wasteful to spend money on gas infrastructure when it's clear electrical distribution is the future of home energy use. Maybe for cooking with a wok. But around here most homes are heated with natural gas. And that takes a lot more energy then heating chicken and vegetables. New natural gas furnaces are up to 97% efficient. They're no longer allowed to sell furnaces that are less than 78% efficient. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/gas-furnaces/buying-guide/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/gas-furnaces/buying-guid...
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        You're only going to need a gas furnace (vs an efficient electric heat pump) in climates where it dips below 10F and an air or ground source heat pump would need to call on auxiliary heat to keep a dwelling warm (unless you live in a newer home with a very tight envelope and little unassisted air exchange occurs). To your point, you can purchase very efficient gas furnaces, but they're more expensive and require a retrofit of the flue pipe to PVC due to corrosive properties of high efficiency furnace exhaust (not a concern in new construction). https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/heat-pumps/buying-guide/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/heat-pumps/buying-guide/... Air source only heat with a heat pump is a slam dunk anywhere south of the 36°30′ parallel, and all of California. https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/average-state-temperatures-in-winter.php https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/average-state-temp...
- twic 8y ago
  They are more difficult to cook with than gas - I find it hard to get a sense of how much heat is going into the pan. But they are certainly not ineffective. If anything, the problem is that they are too effective!
- lutorm 8y ago
  We love our induction range. It gets both way higher and way lower power than any gas range I've used. It doesn't dump a crapload of heat into the kitchen, which if you live in Hawaii is a big feature. And we power it with our PV...
- masklinn 8y ago
  > Induction stoves are unpleasant and ineffective to cook on, not to mention inefficient. They're none of that, although they are less flexible than gas. > They are definitely better in appealing to first time buyers who may not know or care about their shortcomings. They look great and are easy to clean. They're safe, efficient and convenient for people who want to make food. > And if you want to use a wok, well, you can't. […] But if you are into cooking, gas wins. If you're one of the people who believes they need gas to survive, you can buy bottled gas for your range.
gwbas1c 8y ago
I built my house with solar, heat pumps, an EV charger... And natural gas service just for my stove and grill. It costs $500 for gas service, or $500 to put in the high amperage outlet for the stove, so it's a wash, cost-wise. You can take my gas stove over my dead body. I'll happily pay whatever it takes for carbon neutral methane to come through my pipes. (Natural gas is mostly methane.) The flame just makes everything taste better, and methane is pretty easy to produce without fossil fuels.
- monochromatic 8y ago
  > so it's a wash, cost-wise For installation. For ongoing costs, gas wins by a mile.
  - geerlingguy 8y ago
    And in most areas, way more than a mile, especially with 97+% efficient appliances.
    - amluto 8y ago
      In an average house, there are no opportunities for an obviously winning 97% efficient gas burning appliance. A gas stove is nowhere near that efficient. A gas heater may be, but the competition is a heat pump that is far above 100% efficient (in the sense of heat delivered / energy consumed). Same goes for a water heater. (Water heaters are odd. Where I live, there are no highly efficient gas-fired tank water heaters because no one makes one that meets the NOx rules. You can get highly efficient tankless heaters as well as indirect fired heaters. And you can get heat pump water heaters.)
      - gwbas1c 8y ago
        You also need to take into account the efficiencies of delivery. I know grid electricity is usually about 1/3rd efficient. (Rough numbers.)
        8y ago
dokem 8y ago
Dangerous? How many people electrocute themselves each year?
pjc50 8y ago
At the moment this is also 3x as expensive to run, and the only way that gap will close is curtailment of gas exploration and fracking.
thrower123 8y ago
Compared to heating oil, which is the other viable option in the Northeast US, natural gas is cheaper, generally more efficient, and largely idiot-proof. With heating oil, a big, very common problem is people not scheduling deliveries appropriately, so the tank runs dry, and sucks up sludge that has settled to the bottom, and then you have to do expensive maintenance to clean the system, bleed the lines, etc. Worse, if you lose heat in a cold snap in February or March, you have to worry about water pipes freezing up and bursting, which cause even more damage. Piped in natural gas is always on.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  I'd love to use electric heat. Too bad electricity costs in my state are stupidly high. It's just beyond insane to heat with electricity here. If my state could do away with the ineptitude, graft and taste for purchasing energy based on political optics that cause those high prices I'd consider electric heat but there's still the always-on issue that would give me pause. Gas infrastructure is much more "always" than electrical infrastructure around here which usually goes out when you need heat the most.
  - someguydave 8y ago
    In my state electricity is relatively cheap (~$0.10 per kWh) but gas is more like $0.01 per kWh equivalent energy yield. Given that the US (with fracking) is basically the Saudi Arabia of gas, it makes sense to bet on gas for the long run. Even with very efficient air source heat pumps (~300% efficiency) it still makes sense to go with gas heat, especially in a place that has many heating degree days.
  - someguydave 8y ago
    As to the "always on" issue, you can purchase a fairly cheap generator that runs on natural gas or propane for backup - assuming that the gas is running, you can run your furnace fan to heat the house. And yes my experience is that gas never goes out but electricity sometimes does.

I realise this is beside the point of the article, but gas distribution seems like an obsolete and dangerous technology to me. For cooking, induction, for heating, heat pumps.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jzwinck 8y ago

Induction stoves are unpleasant and ineffective to cook on, not to mention inefficient. And if you want to use a wok, well, you can't. They are definitely better in appealing to first time buyers who may not know or care about their shortcomings. They look great and are easy to clean. But if you are into cooking, gas wins.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
> Induction stoves are unpleasant and ineffective to cook on, not to mention inefficient. And if you want to use a wok, well, you can't. With induction, ~90% of the energy from the electricity is used for cooking while only 40% of energy is used using a gas cooktop. Induction is more efficient, and you can use a wok if one is purchased that is designed for use with induction. Induction units can also regulate themselves based on feedback from the cooking device on the receiving end. Induction is arguably superior to cooking with gas. https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-induction-ranges/pros-and-cons-of-induction-cooktops-and-ranges/ https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-induction-ranges/pr... https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better-cooking-through-science https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better... > On almost all counts, induction is faster, safer, cleaner, and more efficient than either gas or electric. And yes, we've done exhaustive oven testing in our labs to support that claim.
- jzwinck 8y ago
  What about the 45% efficiency of a natural gas power plant? Yes induction is efficient if you only look at the part inside your house. But most of the losses are outside your house. If you live in a place with advanced wind or solar power like South Korea then electric probably is more efficient.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    The electric grid tilts cleaner every year. Your stove will burn natural gas forever. A combined cycle natural gas generator is upwards of 50% efficient, already more efficient than your gas stove. It's wasteful to spend money on gas infrastructure when it's clear electrical distribution is the future of home energy use. Infrastructure dollars are already in short supply. Just my two cents. EDIT: You can stockpile energy with batteries, which is the likely outcome based on how much battery manufacturing capacity is coming online to build hundreds of thousands of EVs a year (which are also a great buffer for renewables and electricity in general).
    - PhantomGremlin 8y ago
      It's wasteful to spend money on gas infrastructure when it's clear electrical distribution is the future of home energy use. Maybe for cooking with a wok. But around here most homes are heated with natural gas. And that takes a lot more energy then heating chicken and vegetables. New natural gas furnaces are up to 97% efficient. They're no longer allowed to sell furnaces that are less than 78% efficient. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/gas-furnaces/buying-guide/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/gas-furnaces/buying-guid...
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        You're only going to need a gas furnace (vs an efficient electric heat pump) in climates where it dips below 10F and an air or ground source heat pump would need to call on auxiliary heat to keep a dwelling warm (unless you live in a newer home with a very tight envelope and little unassisted air exchange occurs). To your point, you can purchase very efficient gas furnaces, but they're more expensive and require a retrofit of the flue pipe to PVC due to corrosive properties of high efficiency furnace exhaust (not a concern in new construction). https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/heat-pumps/buying-guide/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/heat-pumps/buying-guide/... Air source only heat with a heat pump is a slam dunk anywhere south of the 36°30′ parallel, and all of California. https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/average-state-temperatures-in-winter.php https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/average-state-temp...
twic 8y ago
They are more difficult to cook with than gas - I find it hard to get a sense of how much heat is going into the pan. But they are certainly not ineffective. If anything, the problem is that they are too effective!
lutorm 8y ago
We love our induction range. It gets both way higher and way lower power than any gas range I've used. It doesn't dump a crapload of heat into the kitchen, which if you live in Hawaii is a big feature. And we power it with our PV...
masklinn 8y ago
> Induction stoves are unpleasant and ineffective to cook on, not to mention inefficient. They're none of that, although they are less flexible than gas. > They are definitely better in appealing to first time buyers who may not know or care about their shortcomings. They look great and are easy to clean. They're safe, efficient and convenient for people who want to make food. > And if you want to use a wok, well, you can't. […] But if you are into cooking, gas wins. If you're one of the people who believes they need gas to survive, you can buy bottled gas for your range.

gwbas1c 8y ago

I built my house with solar, heat pumps, an EV charger... And natural gas service just for my stove and grill. It costs $500 for gas service, or $500 to put in the high amperage outlet for the stove, so it's a wash, cost-wise. You can take my gas stove over my dead body. I'll happily pay whatever it takes for carbon neutral methane to come through my pipes. (Natural gas is mostly methane.) The flame just makes everything taste better, and methane is pretty easy to produce without fossil fuels.

monochromatic 8y ago
> so it's a wash, cost-wise For installation. For ongoing costs, gas wins by a mile.
- geerlingguy 8y ago
  And in most areas, way more than a mile, especially with 97+% efficient appliances.
  - amluto 8y ago
    In an average house, there are no opportunities for an obviously winning 97% efficient gas burning appliance. A gas stove is nowhere near that efficient. A gas heater may be, but the competition is a heat pump that is far above 100% efficient (in the sense of heat delivered / energy consumed). Same goes for a water heater. (Water heaters are odd. Where I live, there are no highly efficient gas-fired tank water heaters because no one makes one that meets the NOx rules. You can get highly efficient tankless heaters as well as indirect fired heaters. And you can get heat pump water heaters.)
    - gwbas1c 8y ago
      You also need to take into account the efficiencies of delivery. I know grid electricity is usually about 1/3rd efficient. (Rough numbers.)
      - 8y ago

dokem 8y ago

Dangerous? How many people electrocute themselves each year?

pjc50 8y ago

At the moment this is also 3x as expensive to run, and the only way that gap will close is curtailment of gas exploration and fracking.

thrower123 8y ago

Compared to heating oil, which is the other viable option in the Northeast US, natural gas is cheaper, generally more efficient, and largely idiot-proof. With heating oil, a big, very common problem is people not scheduling deliveries appropriately, so the tank runs dry, and sucks up sludge that has settled to the bottom, and then you have to do expensive maintenance to clean the system, bleed the lines, etc. Worse, if you lose heat in a cold snap in February or March, you have to worry about water pipes freezing up and bursting, which cause even more damage. Piped in natural gas is always on.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
I'd love to use electric heat. Too bad electricity costs in my state are stupidly high. It's just beyond insane to heat with electricity here. If my state could do away with the ineptitude, graft and taste for purchasing energy based on political optics that cause those high prices I'd consider electric heat but there's still the always-on issue that would give me pause. Gas infrastructure is much more "always" than electrical infrastructure around here which usually goes out when you need heat the most.
- someguydave 8y ago
  In my state electricity is relatively cheap (~$0.10 per kWh) but gas is more like $0.01 per kWh equivalent energy yield. Given that the US (with fracking) is basically the Saudi Arabia of gas, it makes sense to bet on gas for the long run. Even with very efficient air source heat pumps (~300% efficiency) it still makes sense to go with gas heat, especially in a place that has many heating degree days.
- someguydave 8y ago
  As to the "always on" issue, you can purchase a fairly cheap generator that runs on natural gas or propane for backup - assuming that the gas is running, you can run your furnace fan to heat the house. And yes my experience is that gas never goes out but electricity sometimes does.