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And yet, we’re having a discussion about a fertility crisis. A discussion that is happening in parallel with a discussion about whether or not the benefits of a

And yet, we’re having a discussion about a fertility crisis. A discussion that is happening in parallel with a discussion about whether or not the benefits of a college education are worth the costs, for either gender. And a political climate where a demagogue rose to power on a promise to return to a time when these weren’t discussions. A general lack of respect for tradesmen and blue collar workers - despite the many benefits they provide to the economy. An epidemic of loneliness, the destruction of communities all across the country. For a great number of people in the US, there’s a longing for a return to traditional values. The answer is somewhere in between both extremes. Not every man or woman need to start life later. Economic outcomes would be a lot better for a lot of people (and the US in aggregate) if that wasn’t the narrative being sold to them. Of course, for a lot of other people, college, and starting life later is absolutely the right answer, economically, socially, etc. I’m not saying that everyone needs to strive for the traditional nuclear family and forego college, I’m saying that there’s an incredible lack of respect for the people that do, much to everyone’s detriment. Does a woman who enjoys the idea of being a mother and a homemaker really need to go to college? Is it ok for women to want to be president, or to bake cookies for their family. It seems like we’ve really told them ‘no, if your goal is to bake cookies and make a warm home, then you’re pretty much a garbage proletarian.’ Disclaimer, I’m a man, talking about what women can or can’t do, so take it with a grain of salt, hopefully a woman can provide a perspective based on experience.

watwut 8y ago
Now of course the question is what exactly are traditional values and who would loose if we returned to them. And who would win. Because for all the nostalgia, teenage girls who got pregnant and their children were heavily stigmatised and paid the price. People who married as teenagers divorced more often. When divorce was not available due to laws, the nad marriage remained bad including domestic violence and such. It is not just that she won't get education even if she had brain for it. She will have hard time getting and keeping job. She will be completely dependent of help of other people and such situation royally sux. Which does not mean she won't be lonely, because when you depend on people they are less likely to treat you like an equality friend. Lack of respect toward blue colar translates into much less respect for both pregnant teenager and homemaker. The reality is, the warm homemaker happily making cookies is largely rose colored fiction. It kind of ignores reality of it all, for both genders. Men prefered being with male friends over warm home anyway and women were butt of joke anyway. Speaking about loneliness, being stay at home mom can be loneliest experience ever. Lonely guys who have jobs and online games are not nearly as lonely as homemaker situation. Edited to add: you know the stereotype of women being on the phone so much and being extremely talkative? Both are because homemaker is completely alone whole day doing everything alone except when she is on the phone and thus talks more in social situation or when husband comes home.
- pesmhey 8y ago
  Agreed, traditional values are often seen through rose-colored glasses. We trade one set of problems for another. Domestic violence, unhappiness, worse economic outcomes absolutely necessitated women’s empowerment. I agree with all of your points, but wonder if we threw out the baby with the bath water in some ways. Like, in the past, traditionally defined gender norms left little choice for people who wanted something else for the lives. And now, maybe our newly constructed gender norms are restricting the choice for people who might want something else - something more ‘traditional’. My whole point is that people, men and women, shouldn’t be stigmatized for following traditional gender norms any more than they should be stigmatized for creating new ones, and I feel like that may not be the case today. All of this hinges on my initial point that lowered rates of fertility are caused more by culural reasons than lowered sperm count or the availability of abortion. I’ve got no real evidence to back that up, maybe it’s just plastic in our water. Doesn’t seem like any of the researchers in the article know either.
  - watwut 8y ago
    My points were not about what who wants, but what happens after they get it. A guy may want traditional marriage, and still may grow resentful when it leaves him stuck in job he hates while wife does less and have additional demands on him at home. The wife at home won't really appreciate his issues, because she has zero experience with any of that. The traditional roles split worked as long as there was a lot of real home work and not much choice. Then it worked as status symbol for a while, but it was status wifes who eventually rebelled. Unmarried teenage pregnancy is not what people generally means when they talk about traditional role of gender. Unmarried pregnant teenager is better off now compared to whatever you means by traditional time. Large reason for lowered teenage pregnancy rates is sexual education - kids know about contraception and know to use it. Conversely sexual discussion being taboo in the past meant more teenagers pregnant.

watwut 8y ago

Now of course the question is what exactly are traditional values and who would loose if we returned to them. And who would win. Because for all the nostalgia, teenage girls who got pregnant and their children were heavily stigmatised and paid the price. People who married as teenagers divorced more often. When divorce was not available due to laws, the nad marriage remained bad including domestic violence and such. It is not just that she won't get education even if she had brain for it. She will have hard time getting and keeping job. She will be completely dependent of help of other people and such situation royally sux. Which does not mean she won't be lonely, because when you depend on people they are less likely to treat you like an equality friend. Lack of respect toward blue colar translates into much less respect for both pregnant teenager and homemaker. The reality is, the warm homemaker happily making cookies is largely rose colored fiction. It kind of ignores reality of it all, for both genders. Men prefered being with male friends over warm home anyway and women were butt of joke anyway. Speaking about loneliness, being stay at home mom can be loneliest experience ever. Lonely guys who have jobs and online games are not nearly as lonely as homemaker situation. Edited to add: you know the stereotype of women being on the phone so much and being extremely talkative? Both are because homemaker is completely alone whole day doing everything alone except when she is on the phone and thus talks more in social situation or when husband comes home.

pesmhey 8y ago
Agreed, traditional values are often seen through rose-colored glasses. We trade one set of problems for another. Domestic violence, unhappiness, worse economic outcomes absolutely necessitated women’s empowerment. I agree with all of your points, but wonder if we threw out the baby with the bath water in some ways. Like, in the past, traditionally defined gender norms left little choice for people who wanted something else for the lives. And now, maybe our newly constructed gender norms are restricting the choice for people who might want something else - something more ‘traditional’. My whole point is that people, men and women, shouldn’t be stigmatized for following traditional gender norms any more than they should be stigmatized for creating new ones, and I feel like that may not be the case today. All of this hinges on my initial point that lowered rates of fertility are caused more by culural reasons than lowered sperm count or the availability of abortion. I’ve got no real evidence to back that up, maybe it’s just plastic in our water. Doesn’t seem like any of the researchers in the article know either.
- watwut 8y ago
  My points were not about what who wants, but what happens after they get it. A guy may want traditional marriage, and still may grow resentful when it leaves him stuck in job he hates while wife does less and have additional demands on him at home. The wife at home won't really appreciate his issues, because she has zero experience with any of that. The traditional roles split worked as long as there was a lot of real home work and not much choice. Then it worked as status symbol for a while, but it was status wifes who eventually rebelled. Unmarried teenage pregnancy is not what people generally means when they talk about traditional role of gender. Unmarried pregnant teenager is better off now compared to whatever you means by traditional time. Large reason for lowered teenage pregnancy rates is sexual education - kids know about contraception and know to use it. Conversely sexual discussion being taboo in the past meant more teenagers pregnant.