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I think that this is a false argument. Just look at the poorer nations or even poorer populations. They tend to have plenty of children. Kids are expensive,

I think that this is a false argument. Just look at the poorer nations or even poorer populations. They tend to have plenty of children. Kids are expensive, that is true, but I think that most people arguing that it is too expensive to have children actually mean that they are not willing to change their lifestyle or standard of living to have kids.

thrav 8y ago
I agree. Everyone wants to live a certain kind of lifestyle, and kids aren’t worth the sacrifice for many. Without fail, the people I see having kids are all people who grew up with an economic head start, and further distanced themselves with extremely high paying jobs (private equity, hedge fund, commercial real estate, VC, big tech). I don’t know anyone with kids where the husband is not killing it financially, and they all still complain about having limited money. This is true in the Bay Area, where I live now, and back in Texas (Dallas, Austin, San Antonio), where I’m from.
- sorenn111 8y ago
  Your story is so anecdotal and influenced by the people you know that it is practically irrelevant. Not trying to jump down your throat, but "people I see" and "I don't know anyone" renders your statement useless.
- kitsunesoba 8y ago
  What if it’s not an unwillingness to sacrifice, but an unwillingness to take on risk and uncertainty that increases with financial success? We now have an entire generation that has been saddled with crippling debt and has been given little to nothing in the way of tools to escape. Many of them saw something similar happen to their own parents, watching them struggle to keep the boat floating as they grew up. Is it really so strange that this group would approach having children with great caution and only commit once they acquire some level of assurance of reliable and reasonably strain-free access to resources? This is especially true for those who’ve “made it” to some extent and have managed to procure freedom from debt — they’re going to do everything in their power to avoid winding up in those circumstances a second time. I don’t know, to me the attitude reads as more calculated and responsible than anything else.
roel_v 8y ago
No, that is not true, at least not beyond the first child. There recently was a report by the Dutch national statistics department that concluded essentially that more children are becoming a status symbol within the same socio-economic stratus. In other words, being able to afford three children now means that you can afford to have one spouse work part time or not at all. I don't think there is an English version of this report and I'm not claiming it's a universal phenomenon, but it does show that there are (much) more complex factors at play than just 'more is higher status' or 'less is higher status'.
- eaandkw 8y ago
  That report sounds interesting. I have not read it but I would be suspicious of any report from a government. In my opinion government report tend to only look at people as economic units. If a certain type of upbringing does that translate into a higher producing unit then it must be less desirable. To be fair though the more kids you have the more it will cost to feed them so the argument does fail at a certain point. I have four daughters and it does cost a lot to feed them. However the cost is not too bad because we can just use "hand me down" clothes, toys, etc for a long time. We just have to be more frugal than we would otherwise.
manfredo 8y ago
True, but people in poor countries have very different priorities when it comes to children. In many agrarian countries, a child is an extra hand that can work after several years. Depending on the country, there is little to no expectations of education. By comparison, how many yuppies in SF would choose to have an additional child if it meant they couldn't pay for good education for them? Or if it meant raising 2 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment?
- eaandkw 8y ago
  I think that it is mostly about what the person values and what they are willing to sacrifice. If having children is a priority they will usually make the sacrifice. If not they will choose accordingly. As far as how a culture values their children you can have good parents and bad parents either way. Just because a child is raised on a farm and helps the parents out when they are capable doesn't mean that that is a bad life. They can still be happy and productive and live a good life.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    I agree, but I think families are making that sacrifice by choosing quality over quantity. Families are choosing to have a single child and dedicate more resources towards raising him or her, rather than having multiple kids. And while it's true that one can't reliably quantify the quality of someone's childhood and subsequent life, the reality is that as countries develop and economies become more advanced the feasibility of having a productive life performing manual labor without much in the way of education reduces. Hence why developed wealthy places tend to have fewer kids and dedicate more resources towards them.
    - burfog 8y ago
      I think the quality of someone's childhood and subsequent life is partly determined by siblings. Even the miserable times with siblings, such as childhood fights, are teaching you. Later in life you have long-term connections with other human beings. These connections will likely survive even across career changes and long-distance relocation.

thrav 8y ago

I agree. Everyone wants to live a certain kind of lifestyle, and kids aren’t worth the sacrifice for many. Without fail, the people I see having kids are all people who grew up with an economic head start, and further distanced themselves with extremely high paying jobs (private equity, hedge fund, commercial real estate, VC, big tech). I don’t know anyone with kids where the husband is not killing it financially, and they all still complain about having limited money. This is true in the Bay Area, where I live now, and back in Texas (Dallas, Austin, San Antonio), where I’m from.

sorenn111 8y ago
Your story is so anecdotal and influenced by the people you know that it is practically irrelevant. Not trying to jump down your throat, but "people I see" and "I don't know anyone" renders your statement useless.
kitsunesoba 8y ago
What if it’s not an unwillingness to sacrifice, but an unwillingness to take on risk and uncertainty that increases with financial success? We now have an entire generation that has been saddled with crippling debt and has been given little to nothing in the way of tools to escape. Many of them saw something similar happen to their own parents, watching them struggle to keep the boat floating as they grew up. Is it really so strange that this group would approach having children with great caution and only commit once they acquire some level of assurance of reliable and reasonably strain-free access to resources? This is especially true for those who’ve “made it” to some extent and have managed to procure freedom from debt — they’re going to do everything in their power to avoid winding up in those circumstances a second time. I don’t know, to me the attitude reads as more calculated and responsible than anything else.

roel_v 8y ago

No, that is not true, at least not beyond the first child. There recently was a report by the Dutch national statistics department that concluded essentially that more children are becoming a status symbol within the same socio-economic stratus. In other words, being able to afford three children now means that you can afford to have one spouse work part time or not at all. I don't think there is an English version of this report and I'm not claiming it's a universal phenomenon, but it does show that there are (much) more complex factors at play than just 'more is higher status' or 'less is higher status'.

eaandkw 8y ago
That report sounds interesting. I have not read it but I would be suspicious of any report from a government. In my opinion government report tend to only look at people as economic units. If a certain type of upbringing does that translate into a higher producing unit then it must be less desirable. To be fair though the more kids you have the more it will cost to feed them so the argument does fail at a certain point. I have four daughters and it does cost a lot to feed them. However the cost is not too bad because we can just use "hand me down" clothes, toys, etc for a long time. We just have to be more frugal than we would otherwise.

manfredo 8y ago

True, but people in poor countries have very different priorities when it comes to children. In many agrarian countries, a child is an extra hand that can work after several years. Depending on the country, there is little to no expectations of education. By comparison, how many yuppies in SF would choose to have an additional child if it meant they couldn't pay for good education for them? Or if it meant raising 2 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment?

eaandkw 8y ago
I think that it is mostly about what the person values and what they are willing to sacrifice. If having children is a priority they will usually make the sacrifice. If not they will choose accordingly. As far as how a culture values their children you can have good parents and bad parents either way. Just because a child is raised on a farm and helps the parents out when they are capable doesn't mean that that is a bad life. They can still be happy and productive and live a good life.
- manfredo 8y ago
  I agree, but I think families are making that sacrifice by choosing quality over quantity. Families are choosing to have a single child and dedicate more resources towards raising him or her, rather than having multiple kids. And while it's true that one can't reliably quantify the quality of someone's childhood and subsequent life, the reality is that as countries develop and economies become more advanced the feasibility of having a productive life performing manual labor without much in the way of education reduces. Hence why developed wealthy places tend to have fewer kids and dedicate more resources towards them.
  - burfog 8y ago
    I think the quality of someone's childhood and subsequent life is partly determined by siblings. Even the miserable times with siblings, such as childhood fights, are teaching you. Later in life you have long-term connections with other human beings. These connections will likely survive even across career changes and long-distance relocation.