3 ms·

Can you please expand your reasoning about this? Developing major new versions of software costs money, it has never been the case in the entire history of the

by xoa 8y ago

Can you please expand your reasoning about this? Developing major new versions of software costs money, it has never been the case in the entire history of the computer market that one general retail purchase of commercial software would get you all updates of all kinds forever. It's normal that all minor updates are free, and the next major version is a paid upgrade at a marginal difference to full retail. This is economics that both matches people's common sense ("I'm paying for the improvements and another period of minor support, but not what I already paid for") and has favorable economic incentives (upgrades are not guaranteed, the developer does in fact need to convince people it's worth it). In one of Apple's biggest most stupid and infuriating utter fuckups of all time with the App Store, they eliminated this whole mechanism by offering no upgrade support. But the need to get ongoing revenue for updated versions didn't go away, so devs do what is allowed within Apple's stupid system. They either make it subscription, or they create a "new" app where the major version number is part of the name and sell it again, maybe averaging out the price (or offering a reduced fee for the first week say), or some other suboptimal system (new features get introduced incrementally as IAPs say). It's not even the slightest remotest bit "scammy" though. To take your own example OmniFocus v3 is a major update following years and years of support of v2, it's completely reasonable it'd be a paid upgrade. And the Mac version, on Omni's store, is a paid upgrade (or a free upgrade if you bought it in the last year, outside of Apple's garbage market you can do stuff like that) for owners of v2 (they can keep using v2 of course). It's just "OmniFocus" regardless though, this is hardly some weird thing. It's just that on the App Store they are forced by Apple to do something else.

nawtacawp 8y ago
The issue is how the process is perceived by the user. The average user is not going to understand why a new app has to be installed/purchased. It is perceived by mass as a bit scammy. Personally, I would rather pay a yearly subscription similiar to adobe than to have to repurchase every new update.
- rayiner 8y ago
  > The issue is how the process is perceived by the user Goddamn kids. Paying for “Omnifocus 3” seems totally intuitive to me. Paying for major version updates is just how things were back before free/ad-sponsered crap killed the market for software.
- blub 8y ago
  Subscriptions are the real scam, because one pays a lot more for what turns out to be marginal improvements in very simple software. Wtf would one subscribe to a todo app or a text editor? When paying for major version upgrades, it's very clear what one is paying for.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Perhaps, but the answer to this is the platform having support for the correct model. Right now the only way for the developer to get paid in the iOS App Store is to do what Omnifocus (among many others) has done. If Apple's purchase model had evolved from its beginnings in 99¢ flashlight apps, the customers wouldn't have to be confused.
- xoa 8y ago
  >The average user is not going to understand why a new app has to be installed/purchased. It is perceived by mass as a bit scammy. Please cite your source for this, seriously. There are a lot of derogatory assumptions about "average users" and "the masses" that float around on tech boards (including HN, but it's been a thing since nearly the beginning) that just aren't justified. Particularly not when talking about specific subsets, in this the subset of "the masses" that pays a high premium for Apple products and then pays for apps in the first place and has selected one specific developer's app in particular. Non-technical people are not entirely mindless and ignorant. They are not all entirely unfamiliar with the idea of "things are not free to develop forever." In fact I'll expand that and point out that your attitude of being afraid to ask for money is one of the major, always repeated things to watch out for that comes up in nearly every single advice article/blog/whatever on starting up a business (including just a personal consulting operation) and making it work. One has to get over the fear of "driving off users" to some extent and that it's somehow rude to ask for money and other such feelings and just charge. And charge a lot even! Yes some people will go away but they're worthless as users anyway. If it's a good product then actual valuable customers will pay for it. >Personally, I would rather pay a yearly subscription similiar to adobe than to have to repurchase every new update. And I find your attitude mind boggling. I'd rather the exact opposite, and loath the spread of subscription models where you are locked in forever whether you find new updates valuable or not and changes the economic incentives for the developer from having to earn your money each paid upgrade to being able to count on your money even with no updates because if you stop paying you just lose it all entirely. It removes a core natural feedback mechanism on what really matters to customers.
blub 8y ago
Why is 3 a major update? I upgraded OmniFocus 1->2, but won't upgrade 2->3, because I don't consider it worth 20€. The only useful new feature is batch editing, which was quite honestly overdue... And it still doesn't support an "end repeat" date! Things 3 seems much better featurewise.
- iamphilrae 8y ago
  Well there’s a simple response to that... don’t upgrade. No one is forcing you to.
  - Karunamon 8y ago
    That's non-responsive to the point of this particular paid update being one of the crappy ones. Eventually, he's going to have to shell out for the upgrade just to get something that had the right option in Xcode selected so he can still run it, despite an almost complete lack of new features or anything that actual development time was spent on.
    - xoa 8y ago
      >Eventually, he's going to have to shell out for the upgrade Or if he doesn't like it he could switch to one of the many other options. Or something open source, which can then be maintained himself if he wishes. That's part of the core point of open source you know? That one doesn't -have- to shell out for upgrades is why upgrades are good compared to subscriptions. If a developer puts out a bad paid upgrade, they get the most direct and unignorable form of feedback there is: less money. >just to get something that had the right option in Xcode selected so he can still run it, despite an almost complete lack of new features or anything that actual development time was spent on. Thanks for telling us that Apple promises backwards compatibility with all Mac software forever and that there are never any development maintenance of any kind required except "selecting the right option in Xcode". This was really news to me but will certainly make things a lot easier going forward now that I know nothing ever gets deprecated and removed from the OS over time.
  - blub 8y ago

by xoa 8y ago

nawtacawp 8y ago

The issue is how the process is perceived by the user. The average user is not going to understand why a new app has to be installed/purchased. It is perceived by mass as a bit scammy. Personally, I would rather pay a yearly subscription similiar to adobe than to have to repurchase every new update.

rayiner 8y ago
> The issue is how the process is perceived by the user Goddamn kids. Paying for “Omnifocus 3” seems totally intuitive to me. Paying for major version updates is just how things were back before free/ad-sponsered crap killed the market for software.
blub 8y ago
Subscriptions are the real scam, because one pays a lot more for what turns out to be marginal improvements in very simple software. Wtf would one subscribe to a todo app or a text editor? When paying for major version upgrades, it's very clear what one is paying for.
wool_gather 8y ago
Perhaps, but the answer to this is the platform having support for the correct model. Right now the only way for the developer to get paid in the iOS App Store is to do what Omnifocus (among many others) has done. If Apple's purchase model had evolved from its beginnings in 99¢ flashlight apps, the customers wouldn't have to be confused.
xoa 8y ago
>The average user is not going to understand why a new app has to be installed/purchased. It is perceived by mass as a bit scammy. Please cite your source for this, seriously. There are a lot of derogatory assumptions about "average users" and "the masses" that float around on tech boards (including HN, but it's been a thing since nearly the beginning) that just aren't justified. Particularly not when talking about specific subsets, in this the subset of "the masses" that pays a high premium for Apple products and then pays for apps in the first place and has selected one specific developer's app in particular. Non-technical people are not entirely mindless and ignorant. They are not all entirely unfamiliar with the idea of "things are not free to develop forever." In fact I'll expand that and point out that your attitude of being afraid to ask for money is one of the major, always repeated things to watch out for that comes up in nearly every single advice article/blog/whatever on starting up a business (including just a personal consulting operation) and making it work. One has to get over the fear of "driving off users" to some extent and that it's somehow rude to ask for money and other such feelings and just charge. And charge a lot even! Yes some people will go away but they're worthless as users anyway. If it's a good product then actual valuable customers will pay for it. >Personally, I would rather pay a yearly subscription similiar to adobe than to have to repurchase every new update. And I find your attitude mind boggling. I'd rather the exact opposite, and loath the spread of subscription models where you are locked in forever whether you find new updates valuable or not and changes the economic incentives for the developer from having to earn your money each paid upgrade to being able to count on your money even with no updates because if you stop paying you just lose it all entirely. It removes a core natural feedback mechanism on what really matters to customers.

blub 8y ago

Why is 3 a major update? I upgraded OmniFocus 1->2, but won't upgrade 2->3, because I don't consider it worth 20€. The only useful new feature is batch editing, which was quite honestly overdue... And it still doesn't support an "end repeat" date! Things 3 seems much better featurewise.

iamphilrae 8y ago
Well there’s a simple response to that... don’t upgrade. No one is forcing you to.
- Karunamon 8y ago
  That's non-responsive to the point of this particular paid update being one of the crappy ones. Eventually, he's going to have to shell out for the upgrade just to get something that had the right option in Xcode selected so he can still run it, despite an almost complete lack of new features or anything that actual development time was spent on.
  - xoa 8y ago
    >Eventually, he's going to have to shell out for the upgrade Or if he doesn't like it he could switch to one of the many other options. Or something open source, which can then be maintained himself if he wishes. That's part of the core point of open source you know? That one doesn't -have- to shell out for upgrades is why upgrades are good compared to subscriptions. If a developer puts out a bad paid upgrade, they get the most direct and unignorable form of feedback there is: less money. >just to get something that had the right option in Xcode selected so he can still run it, despite an almost complete lack of new features or anything that actual development time was spent on. Thanks for telling us that Apple promises backwards compatibility with all Mac software forever and that there are never any development maintenance of any kind required except "selecting the right option in Xcode". This was really news to me but will certainly make things a lot easier going forward now that I know nothing ever gets deprecated and removed from the OS over time.
- blub 8y ago