5 ms·

This is cynical in the extreme and essentially not true. Doing coursework and showing up for class, is not 'compliance to authority' - it's just the process -

This is cynical in the extreme and essentially not true. Doing coursework and showing up for class, is not 'compliance to authority' - it's just the process - and fyi voluntarily chosen by the student in most cases. In most schools you don't even have to show up or do much frankly, you can just 'write the final' if you think you're a genius. The workload in most programs surpasses the ability of 'just smart' folks to wing it, and so grades are definitely a measure of conscientiousness behaviour in the student as well as intelligence. After 20 years of hiring I will take the 'good grades, reasonably bright' student, who was diligent and conscientious over the possibly genius person who didn't do much. 95% of even eng. work requires diligence, competence, focus, the ability to work with others, assumption of responsibility and a hint of leadership. I've never once seen a 'genius move' in my entire career where the totally brilliant dude made the difference. Maybe in some highly specific R&D things, but that's rare. I should add: that 'someone is good at University' doesn't make them a better person, it doesn't make the more creative, moral, more suited to a whole host of things, it doesn't mean they're geniuses etc. etc.. It mostly just means they are 'good at University'. Which might happen to be a good benchmark for 'good at being a white collar employee'.

bobcostas55 8y ago
There's a reason the process involves compulsory tedium rather than skill/knowledge certification.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The process absolutely involves skill and intelligence and most of it is not tedious. Doing a few sample questions, trying to solve a quadratic is not 'tedious', for example. Neither is coding your first little program.
  - radiantswirl 8y ago
    Yeah but all the tedious hoops you must jump through to even get to that point are absolutely ludicrous and reveal college as the sheeple-manufacturing scam that everyone now knows it is.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      "reveal college as the sheeple-manufacturing scam that everyone now knows it is." Though college is not for everyone, it's objectively not a 'sheeple producing scam', and 'most people' know that. You're entitled to your opinion, surely, but I don't think you speak for the masses on that one.
      - radiantswirl 8y ago
        The NYT article from yesterday detailing how millennials are now choosing trades instead of college supports my point
- chongli 8y ago
  There's nothing tedious about the advanced math and CS classes at University of Waterloo, for example. The weekly assignments will crush you if you don't give them each at least 10 hours of solid work, but they're not tedious at all. They're simply that difficult. But they're only worth 10% of your overall grade. The remaining 90% is split between the midterm and final. If you think you're such a hot shot that you don't need the assignments or the midterm to prepare you, they'll usually let you write and count the final alone towards 90% of your grade. Good luck, though.
monetus 8y ago
I know the conversation is around University... but tedium seemed to be a hallmark, maybe the keystone, of the public schools I attended.
howlgram 8y ago
I am tempted to say "Ah, how mislead you are, when did you last go to university?", but perhaps there's really different universities from what I see as the norm, who knows, I'd feel you either experienced a stranger university, or you don't remember it well enough. Anecdotal: I am constantly on the verge of failing classes because to me it's really difficult to attend class, and because many points are assigned to the busywork that is attending class, I lose them, at this point it's a ritual where the (often really bad) teachers pretend to impart knowledge for two hours just to earn their wage. I easily perform way above other classmates when it comes to big projects and tests, of course I have to make up for my grade, but it's bullshit that I am "on the verge of failing" when I demonstrate great understanding and knowledge of the class material. Why is this bullshit? Because I am paying to be taught pertinent information, not to be put on trial for how much busy work I can put up with. But this can be explained because universities are not primarily interested in benefiting the students, their primary interest is on working as a gatekeeper for employers who (the majority) care a great deal about obedience above smart work. There's extremely few professors good enough to truly warrant 2 hours of focus per class, yet many of them feel literally offended if students don't show up for class, it's a crooked system. > In most schools you don't even have to show up or do much frankly, you can just 'write the final' if you think you're a genius. my experience has been the absolute contrary.
- dan-robertson 8y ago
  > my experience has been the absolute contrary. This certainly seems to be the case. You write: > universities are not primarily interested in benefiting the students, their primary interest is on working as a gatekeeper for employers But my experience was of a university that only cared about getting graduates employed to the extent that league tables included this statistic. What they really wanted was to trade people towards being academics (and would sometimes look with disdain upon capable students leaving to be paid well in industry instead of heading for academia). My grade was based almost entirely on end of year exams with a token amount of assessed coursework (which was, like the exams, not specific to any course). So one did not need to attend lectures (and many did not, especially if the lecturer were bad or the student hungover). Doing homework was only enforced by the social pressure of not wanting to admit to not having done it, although if you didn’t do any then you might be punished (eg made to wait a year before returning) even if you do ok in exams. Granted I went to university in the U.K. and other universities or the American system might be different (eg I understand American universities grade classes individually and if one signs up for a class, one will get a grade; whereas we did not have that and so one could attempt difficult classes that might not be taken to exams). I only went to university a few years ago so I suppose this is a counter anecdote to your anecdote. Also if you really so above your peers and bored of your teachers then you should find some harder classes and some teachers whom you want to talk to. And maybe find some relevant university person to talk to about your difficulty attending class (although they mightn’t be much help)

bobcostas55 8y ago

There's a reason the process involves compulsory tedium rather than skill/knowledge certification.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
The process absolutely involves skill and intelligence and most of it is not tedious. Doing a few sample questions, trying to solve a quadratic is not 'tedious', for example. Neither is coding your first little program.
- radiantswirl 8y ago
  Yeah but all the tedious hoops you must jump through to even get to that point are absolutely ludicrous and reveal college as the sheeple-manufacturing scam that everyone now knows it is.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "reveal college as the sheeple-manufacturing scam that everyone now knows it is." Though college is not for everyone, it's objectively not a 'sheeple producing scam', and 'most people' know that. You're entitled to your opinion, surely, but I don't think you speak for the masses on that one.
    - radiantswirl 8y ago
      The NYT article from yesterday detailing how millennials are now choosing trades instead of college supports my point
chongli 8y ago
There's nothing tedious about the advanced math and CS classes at University of Waterloo, for example. The weekly assignments will crush you if you don't give them each at least 10 hours of solid work, but they're not tedious at all. They're simply that difficult. But they're only worth 10% of your overall grade. The remaining 90% is split between the midterm and final. If you think you're such a hot shot that you don't need the assignments or the midterm to prepare you, they'll usually let you write and count the final alone towards 90% of your grade. Good luck, though.

monetus 8y ago

I know the conversation is around University... but tedium seemed to be a hallmark, maybe the keystone, of the public schools I attended.

howlgram 8y ago

I am tempted to say "Ah, how mislead you are, when did you last go to university?", but perhaps there's really different universities from what I see as the norm, who knows, I'd feel you either experienced a stranger university, or you don't remember it well enough. Anecdotal: I am constantly on the verge of failing classes because to me it's really difficult to attend class, and because many points are assigned to the busywork that is attending class, I lose them, at this point it's a ritual where the (often really bad) teachers pretend to impart knowledge for two hours just to earn their wage. I easily perform way above other classmates when it comes to big projects and tests, of course I have to make up for my grade, but it's bullshit that I am "on the verge of failing" when I demonstrate great understanding and knowledge of the class material. Why is this bullshit? Because I am paying to be taught pertinent information, not to be put on trial for how much busy work I can put up with. But this can be explained because universities are not primarily interested in benefiting the students, their primary interest is on working as a gatekeeper for employers who (the majority) care a great deal about obedience above smart work. There's extremely few professors good enough to truly warrant 2 hours of focus per class, yet many of them feel literally offended if students don't show up for class, it's a crooked system. > In most schools you don't even have to show up or do much frankly, you can just 'write the final' if you think you're a genius. my experience has been the absolute contrary.

dan-robertson 8y ago
> my experience has been the absolute contrary. This certainly seems to be the case. You write: > universities are not primarily interested in benefiting the students, their primary interest is on working as a gatekeeper for employers But my experience was of a university that only cared about getting graduates employed to the extent that league tables included this statistic. What they really wanted was to trade people towards being academics (and would sometimes look with disdain upon capable students leaving to be paid well in industry instead of heading for academia). My grade was based almost entirely on end of year exams with a token amount of assessed coursework (which was, like the exams, not specific to any course). So one did not need to attend lectures (and many did not, especially if the lecturer were bad or the student hungover). Doing homework was only enforced by the social pressure of not wanting to admit to not having done it, although if you didn’t do any then you might be punished (eg made to wait a year before returning) even if you do ok in exams. Granted I went to university in the U.K. and other universities or the American system might be different (eg I understand American universities grade classes individually and if one signs up for a class, one will get a grade; whereas we did not have that and so one could attempt difficult classes that might not be taken to exams). I only went to university a few years ago so I suppose this is a counter anecdote to your anecdote. Also if you really so above your peers and bored of your teachers then you should find some harder classes and some teachers whom you want to talk to. And maybe find some relevant university person to talk to about your difficulty attending class (although they mightn’t be much help)