4 ms·

About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's been pretty difficult for a few reasons. The biggest reason, by far, is access to

About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's been pretty difficult for a few reasons. The biggest reason, by far, is access to information. Roughly, I would like to purchase only meat from animals that lived a "happy" life and had a relatively short death. Animals that lived outdoors, basically. But there are no credible labels or certifications for this, which means buying meat at the grocery store is pretty much impossible. So I have to buy meat from a farmer. Recently I've been using crowdcow.com, but even there, the messaging seems to be all around _flavor_ and not _welfare_. Farmers will tell you what they feed the livestock, not how they treat them. So the best you can do is research the farm and hope their website isn't lying. Another difficulty has been flavor and texture--pasture raised meat tastes more gamey and is much tougher than "normal" grocery store meat. I've actually found that I prefer the flavor of "humane" pork and chicken but not beef. Lastly there's price. It's about 2/3x more expensive. This isn't that big of a problem, because we simply spend the same amount as a household and just eat less, substituting for vegetables. It does mean that I buy a lot more of the "cheaper" cuts, which require more skill in preparation. I haven't yet bought a pasture-raised ribeye--it's simply too expensive. As for eating out, it's basically impossible. No restaurant I know where I live (Chicago) credibly serves only ethically sourced meat, as far as I know. To be honest I still eat "normal" meat when I eat out, although I have reduced my consumption somewhat. There are, unfortunately, some products of dubious ethical provenance that simply have no substitute, like fine cheeses and cured meats. It seems to me like a huge opportunity. I would gladly pay 2/3 times for meat if I knew it was raised more ethically. In fact, that's what I think meat _should_ cost (and _all_ meat be ethically raised).

TarpitCarnivore 8y ago
There may be a few farms in your state that can do deliveries within the state. It's a bit harder when trying to deliver across state lines as the regulations are much higher. As for eating out, the best you could do is ask or just avoid it (meat) all together (including fish) when eating.
- elbasti 8y ago
  Of course, there are environmental reasons to avoid (some, most?) fish, but I consider wild-caught fish (and all wild/hunted game) fairly neutral from an animal welfare perspective. Perhaps this is a bit naive.
  - TarpitCarnivore 8y ago
    My stance on fish consumption has to do with lack of global regulation. If the place you're eating from a local, wild caught source that doesn't have byproduct waste (also a huge problem) go for it.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    Depends how the fish was caught. Generally line caught fish is the best, because it reduces accidental and unwanted kills.
daodedickinson 8y ago
My dad was a cowboy and studied meat science in grad school. He learned cows were fed processed cow indirectly and called bullshit on the excuses of why that was supposedly safe and, sure enough, he followed the relevant journals closely as mad cow disease and the prion were discovered. One of his first veterinary jobs was at a stockyard and I don't think he lasted a month before quitting rather than doing something illegal and unethical. He kept raising such a small herd as a hobby so he could know everything the beef was fed and injected with.
m000 8y ago
Labeling/certifying packaged and processed meats based on the animal living conditions is already happening in the Netherlands. There is a one to three star rating called Beter Leven Keurmerk (Better Living Quality Mark). This is stamped on the packaging of most animal products sold in grocery stores. The meaning of the stars for each kind of animal is explained on their website: https://beterleven.dierenbescherming.nl/ https://beterleven.dierenbescherming.nl/
- slacka 8y ago
  I also saw this labeling when I was in Spain. For example, I often saw pork labeled as "Acorn-fed, pasture raised pigs". Beyond the labeling, their culture seems place a higher value over quality food compared to Americans who seems to value cheap food. I've traveled to both the American farmland and Spanish countryside. The difference is night and day. In America's factory farm areas, the animals are crowed in mud/feces, whose stench can be smelled for miles away. In Spain, the animals were happily grazing in lush pasture land. I believe this is a consumer demand issue. America is a rich nation. The question my mind is why do European countries like Span and Netherlands have such difference values?
hkai 8y ago
How would you respond to the author of the article who dismisses free-range meat as similar to being a good slaveowner or killing people painlessly in a genocide?
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  As a false equivalence fallacy...
- cbolton 8y ago
  Not OP but I would say it's still better than being a bad slave owner or killing people painfully in a genocide.
mrfusion 8y ago
Really good on you for doing that! Would you consider hunting as a source of meat? I’ve been thinking that might be a more ethical way to get meat. I’ve never seen a breakdown on whether hunting is cost effective though.
village-idiot 8y ago
For the past 4 years or so we’ve simply just cultivated a relationship with an area rancher. Most will happily give you a tour of the farm and everything. It doesn’t fix the price issue, although luckily we have enough income and prioritize food quality over other things, but it does help with some of the moral qualms you might have.
neuralRiot 8y ago
Sadly grassfeed meat is even less sustainable than factory farmed and production at the current level is impossible, same as with energy we need to find a way to turn the tables and learn to waste less instead of producing more.
slantaclaus 8y ago
Perhaps you should consider hunting
drodgers 8y ago
Good on you for making a big effort here! Another harm-reduction approach like this which might be easier or preferable for some people is to just replace eating chicken with beef (bonus if the beef is ethically-sourced, but still worthwhile if not). Here's the core of the reasoning (quoted from http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/23/vegetarianism-for-meat-eaters/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/23/vegetarianism-for-meat-...): The average cow is very big and makes 405,000 calories of beef; the average chicken is very small and makes 3000 calories worth of chicken. So each year, I kill about 0.3 cows and about 42 chickens, for a total of 42.3 animals killed. Suppose that I stop eating chicken and switch entirely to beef. Now I am killing about 0.6 cows and 0 chickens, for a total of 0.6 animals killed. By this step alone, I have decreased the number of animals I am killing from 42.3/year to 0.6/year, a 98% improvement. The difference becomes even bigger once you compare levels of suffering. Chickens are probably the most miserable farm animals; they are mutilated, packed into tiny cages to the point of immobility, left to fester in their own waste, and bred so intensively for size that their bodies cannot support them and they likely experience severe musculoskeletal pain. Although cows’ lives are also pretty terrible too, Brian Tomasik estimates that chickens’ suffering is about twice as bad.
- sizzle 8y ago
  My only issue here is the studies of cancer risk increasing with red meat consumption.
super-serial 8y ago
I'm in Chicago - I used to have a subscription to this CSA: https://mintcreekfarm.com/about-us/ https://mintcreekfarm.com/about-us/ The problem is I don't like cooking enough(especially raw meat). If I receive pounds of meat every week it's just going to go to waste. I just want some organic soy-free, corn-free poultry that is precooked... I think the only option for something like that is to signup to a CSA and hire a personal chef.
joevandyk 8y ago
Crowd Cow employee here. Animal welfare is incredibly important to us, and is the reason why many of us work here. We will look into ways of improving our messaging.
sizzle 8y ago
Wow crowd cow is really cool. Is there an equivalent to crowd cow for organic farm vegetable?

TarpitCarnivore 8y ago

There may be a few farms in your state that can do deliveries within the state. It's a bit harder when trying to deliver across state lines as the regulations are much higher. As for eating out, the best you could do is ask or just avoid it (meat) all together (including fish) when eating.

elbasti 8y ago
Of course, there are environmental reasons to avoid (some, most?) fish, but I consider wild-caught fish (and all wild/hunted game) fairly neutral from an animal welfare perspective. Perhaps this is a bit naive.
- TarpitCarnivore 8y ago
  My stance on fish consumption has to do with lack of global regulation. If the place you're eating from a local, wild caught source that doesn't have byproduct waste (also a huge problem) go for it.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  Depends how the fish was caught. Generally line caught fish is the best, because it reduces accidental and unwanted kills.

daodedickinson 8y ago

My dad was a cowboy and studied meat science in grad school. He learned cows were fed processed cow indirectly and called bullshit on the excuses of why that was supposedly safe and, sure enough, he followed the relevant journals closely as mad cow disease and the prion were discovered. One of his first veterinary jobs was at a stockyard and I don't think he lasted a month before quitting rather than doing something illegal and unethical. He kept raising such a small herd as a hobby so he could know everything the beef was fed and injected with.

m000 8y ago

Labeling/certifying packaged and processed meats based on the animal living conditions is already happening in the Netherlands. There is a one to three star rating called Beter Leven Keurmerk (Better Living Quality Mark). This is stamped on the packaging of most animal products sold in grocery stores. The meaning of the stars for each kind of animal is explained on their website: https://beterleven.dierenbescherming.nl/ https://beterleven.dierenbescherming.nl/

slacka 8y ago
I also saw this labeling when I was in Spain. For example, I often saw pork labeled as "Acorn-fed, pasture raised pigs". Beyond the labeling, their culture seems place a higher value over quality food compared to Americans who seems to value cheap food. I've traveled to both the American farmland and Spanish countryside. The difference is night and day. In America's factory farm areas, the animals are crowed in mud/feces, whose stench can be smelled for miles away. In Spain, the animals were happily grazing in lush pasture land. I believe this is a consumer demand issue. America is a rich nation. The question my mind is why do European countries like Span and Netherlands have such difference values?

hkai 8y ago

How would you respond to the author of the article who dismisses free-range meat as similar to being a good slaveowner or killing people painlessly in a genocide?

UncleEntity 8y ago
As a false equivalence fallacy...
cbolton 8y ago
Not OP but I would say it's still better than being a bad slave owner or killing people painfully in a genocide.

mrfusion 8y ago

Really good on you for doing that! Would you consider hunting as a source of meat? I’ve been thinking that might be a more ethical way to get meat. I’ve never seen a breakdown on whether hunting is cost effective though.

village-idiot 8y ago

For the past 4 years or so we’ve simply just cultivated a relationship with an area rancher. Most will happily give you a tour of the farm and everything. It doesn’t fix the price issue, although luckily we have enough income and prioritize food quality over other things, but it does help with some of the moral qualms you might have.

neuralRiot 8y ago

Sadly grassfeed meat is even less sustainable than factory farmed and production at the current level is impossible, same as with energy we need to find a way to turn the tables and learn to waste less instead of producing more.

slantaclaus 8y ago

Perhaps you should consider hunting

drodgers 8y ago

Good on you for making a big effort here! Another harm-reduction approach like this which might be easier or preferable for some people is to just replace eating chicken with beef (bonus if the beef is ethically-sourced, but still worthwhile if not). Here's the core of the reasoning (quoted from http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/23/vegetarianism-for-meat-eaters/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/23/vegetarianism-for-meat-...): The average cow is very big and makes 405,000 calories of beef; the average chicken is very small and makes 3000 calories worth of chicken. So each year, I kill about 0.3 cows and about 42 chickens, for a total of 42.3 animals killed. Suppose that I stop eating chicken and switch entirely to beef. Now I am killing about 0.6 cows and 0 chickens, for a total of 0.6 animals killed. By this step alone, I have decreased the number of animals I am killing from 42.3/year to 0.6/year, a 98% improvement. The difference becomes even bigger once you compare levels of suffering. Chickens are probably the most miserable farm animals; they are mutilated, packed into tiny cages to the point of immobility, left to fester in their own waste, and bred so intensively for size that their bodies cannot support them and they likely experience severe musculoskeletal pain. Although cows’ lives are also pretty terrible too, Brian Tomasik estimates that chickens’ suffering is about twice as bad.

sizzle 8y ago
My only issue here is the studies of cancer risk increasing with red meat consumption.

super-serial 8y ago

I'm in Chicago - I used to have a subscription to this CSA: https://mintcreekfarm.com/about-us/ https://mintcreekfarm.com/about-us/ The problem is I don't like cooking enough(especially raw meat). If I receive pounds of meat every week it's just going to go to waste. I just want some organic soy-free, corn-free poultry that is precooked... I think the only option for something like that is to signup to a CSA and hire a personal chef.

joevandyk 8y ago

Crowd Cow employee here. Animal welfare is incredibly important to us, and is the reason why many of us work here. We will look into ways of improving our messaging.

sizzle 8y ago

Wow crowd cow is really cool. Is there an equivalent to crowd cow for organic farm vegetable?