5 ms·

I guess you are replying to the subject line instead of the actual article because your post makes no sense in the context of the article. As the article says,

I guess you are replying to the subject line instead of the actual article because your post makes no sense in the context of the article. As the article says, "In ancient literature, emotions were predictable reactions to external actions or events." All you've done is list people having predictable reactions to external actions and events.... Just like the article says ancient literature did.

idoubtit 8y ago
Most of our emotions are predictable reactions to external actions or events. Fortunately, modern literature hasn't completely forgotten this. The article is not very consistent, because it also states that «in medieval or classical texts, “people are constantly planning, remembering, loving, fearing, but they somehow manage to do this without the author drawing attention to these mental states.” This changed dramatically between 1500 and 1700». The classical Greek tragedies certainly did draw attention to the mental state of their characters. I remember a long monologue of Euripides' Andromache that I would sum up as "This life is too hard. Why did I have a son? I shouldn't have, as my care for him doubles my suffering. But I should not lament, I should act and die for my son."
- drb91 8y ago
  While the Euripides is an excellent counterpoint, you’re not acknowledging the clear rhetorical turn that started with the western novel (or shakespeare, I guess).
  - coldtea 8y ago
    That's the thing. While we don't deny the "clear rhetorical turn that started with the western novel (or shakespeare)", I (and I think the parent) believe that this turn was in fact a return (to what e.g. ancient Greek, Chinese, etc literature did: talk about feelings) and not some wholly new direction.
    - drb91 8y ago
      Greek literature doesn’t have THAT much feelings. There’s nothing remotely in the realm of Hamlet in all of ancient greek lit to my knowledge. Calling it a return is a massive stretch of the Euripides example—I always viewed his works more like sitcoms than having any realistic human characters.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - chongli 8y ago
        Try Cassandra from the tragedy Agamemnon by Aeschylus. Her psychological torment from having her true predictions go unheeded is every bit as relatable as Hamlet's suffering for very similar reasons. She is an incredibly sympathetic person, not at all a sitcom character.
        drb91 8y ago
        I’ll have to check it out! There’s also Sappho, although I’m much less surprised poetry is personal.
coldtea 8y ago
>As the article says, "In ancient literature, emotions were predictable reactions to external actions or events." Ancient Greek tragedy has no more "predictable reactions" than a modern work of fiction would have -- it goes into depth about the ambivalence of a character's feelings for example. Besides the article also says that people in ancient literature didn't openly talk or display their emotions, except through action (tearing their hair, etc). That's patently wrong even for the Iliad, and doubly so for Odyssey. The article also bizarrely seems to restrict to literature after the fall of Rome and up to the 15th century or so, as if that constitutes the whole of being "ancient"... Also, have the author read millennia old Greek, Chinese, etc poetry? They'll find all kinds of inner monologues and discussions of feelings. My heart is no mere mirror That cannot comprehend. Brothers I have, but may not On brothers e’en depend. Tush! when I go complaining ’Tis only to offend. No stone this heart of mine is, That may be turned and rolled; No mat this heart of mine is, To fold or to unfold. Steadfast and strict my life is; Nought ’gainst it can be told. Yet here I sit in sorrow, Scorned by a rabble crew. My troubles have been many, My insults not a few. Calmly I think—then, starting, I beat my breast anew. O moon, why now the brighter?* O sun, why now dost wane? My heart wears grief as garments Inured to soil and stain. Calmly I think—then, starting, Would fly—but all in vain. From "The Odes of Pei", several centuries B.C.
- jhedwards 8y ago
  I can't see a translation like that without attempting to provide a simpler, more contemporary one myself: My heart is not a mirror, it doesn't reflect accurately. Even though I have brothers, I can't rely on them. If I tell them my opinion, I will meet with their rage. My heart is not a stone, it cannot be turned. My heart is not a mat, it can't be rolled up. My character is excellent, there's nothing to nitpick. My grieving heart is anxious, I am hated by the crowd of fools. I meet with many tragedies, and receive many insults. Silently, I think about my situation, startled awake I beat my breast. The sun and the moon, why have you grown small? The sorrow in my heart, like dirty laundry. Silently, I think about my situation. But there's no way to fly away.
  - lukev 8y ago
badosu 8y ago
Perhaps the author thinks the analysis is shallow due to the heroic nature of the heroes's emotions, which separates them from the common man. Although I think the greek tragedies have a higher level of psychoanalytical sophistication that would only be matched in the 19th century.

idoubtit 8y ago

Most of our emotions are predictable reactions to external actions or events. Fortunately, modern literature hasn't completely forgotten this. The article is not very consistent, because it also states that «in medieval or classical texts, “people are constantly planning, remembering, loving, fearing, but they somehow manage to do this without the author drawing attention to these mental states.” This changed dramatically between 1500 and 1700». The classical Greek tragedies certainly did draw attention to the mental state of their characters. I remember a long monologue of Euripides' Andromache that I would sum up as "This life is too hard. Why did I have a son? I shouldn't have, as my care for him doubles my suffering. But I should not lament, I should act and die for my son."

drb91 8y ago
While the Euripides is an excellent counterpoint, you’re not acknowledging the clear rhetorical turn that started with the western novel (or shakespeare, I guess).
- coldtea 8y ago
  That's the thing. While we don't deny the "clear rhetorical turn that started with the western novel (or shakespeare)", I (and I think the parent) believe that this turn was in fact a return (to what e.g. ancient Greek, Chinese, etc literature did: talk about feelings) and not some wholly new direction.
  - drb91 8y ago
    Greek literature doesn’t have THAT much feelings. There’s nothing remotely in the realm of Hamlet in all of ancient greek lit to my knowledge. Calling it a return is a massive stretch of the Euripides example—I always viewed his works more like sitcoms than having any realistic human characters.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - chongli 8y ago
      Try Cassandra from the tragedy Agamemnon by Aeschylus. Her psychological torment from having her true predictions go unheeded is every bit as relatable as Hamlet's suffering for very similar reasons. She is an incredibly sympathetic person, not at all a sitcom character.
      - drb91 8y ago
        I’ll have to check it out! There’s also Sappho, although I’m much less surprised poetry is personal.

coldtea 8y ago

>As the article says, "In ancient literature, emotions were predictable reactions to external actions or events." Ancient Greek tragedy has no more "predictable reactions" than a modern work of fiction would have -- it goes into depth about the ambivalence of a character's feelings for example. Besides the article also says that people in ancient literature didn't openly talk or display their emotions, except through action (tearing their hair, etc). That's patently wrong even for the Iliad, and doubly so for Odyssey. The article also bizarrely seems to restrict to literature after the fall of Rome and up to the 15th century or so, as if that constitutes the whole of being "ancient"... Also, have the author read millennia old Greek, Chinese, etc poetry? They'll find all kinds of inner monologues and discussions of feelings. My heart is no mere mirror That cannot comprehend. Brothers I have, but may not On brothers e’en depend. Tush! when I go complaining ’Tis only to offend. No stone this heart of mine is, That may be turned and rolled; No mat this heart of mine is, To fold or to unfold. Steadfast and strict my life is; Nought ’gainst it can be told. Yet here I sit in sorrow, Scorned by a rabble crew. My troubles have been many, My insults not a few. Calmly I think—then, starting, I beat my breast anew. O moon, why now the brighter?* O sun, why now dost wane? My heart wears grief as garments Inured to soil and stain. Calmly I think—then, starting, Would fly—but all in vain. From "The Odes of Pei", several centuries B.C.

jhedwards 8y ago
I can't see a translation like that without attempting to provide a simpler, more contemporary one myself: My heart is not a mirror, it doesn't reflect accurately. Even though I have brothers, I can't rely on them. If I tell them my opinion, I will meet with their rage. My heart is not a stone, it cannot be turned. My heart is not a mat, it can't be rolled up. My character is excellent, there's nothing to nitpick. My grieving heart is anxious, I am hated by the crowd of fools. I meet with many tragedies, and receive many insults. Silently, I think about my situation, startled awake I beat my breast. The sun and the moon, why have you grown small? The sorrow in my heart, like dirty laundry. Silently, I think about my situation. But there's no way to fly away.
- lukev 8y ago

badosu 8y ago

Perhaps the author thinks the analysis is shallow due to the heroic nature of the heroes's emotions, which separates them from the common man. Although I think the greek tragedies have a higher level of psychoanalytical sophistication that would only be matched in the 19th century.