4 ms·

I'm not sure about a shift from war, (though maybe this happens also). I'm not really sure what drives it, honestly. I'm just talking observationally, about wh

by netcan 8y ago

I'm not sure about a shift from war, (though maybe this happens also). I'm not really sure what drives it, honestly. I'm just talking observationally, about what kind of polities ended up emerging, however they emerged. We are now living in an era of near absolute nationalism. Polity & nation are nearly synonyms for our generation. I agree with the criticism that 14th-15th century Spain was not really a national state, but (like you) I think that the distinction is mostly a matter of convention. I'm calling it a proto-nation state. The emerging Spanish language, culture, and pre-existing religious identity became a core part of what Spain is. Minority languages, customs and religions became a (literal and metaphorical) heresy. They were eventually all given the same ultimatuum as the Jews (again, metaphorically and literally), assimilate into the mainstream religion, language and culture or leave.

tronko 8y ago
That's not true at all. In Spain no language was forbidden as was in France and Jews were expelled because - The pressure of mendicant orders. - The pope.
- netcan 8y ago
  I think we are speaking at different levels, sort of. Jews (later Muslims) were given an actual, literal choice. For other groups/languages/whatnot it was "metaphorical." Some of these processes are literal decrees, banning practices, languages or people. Some are less legible, like "soft power" in modern terms. I'm interested in the long term results, which was (in the case of Spain early on, and many/most places subsequently) a decisive change from multiculturalism (like the sephardi community of Bosnia represents) to national monoculturalism. That is, over the centuries societal pressures and dynamics were such that a more monolithic identity succeeded a patchwork of language, dialect and culture. My argument (I suspect we disagree) is that Spain was an earlier example of something that happened widely in the 19th, 20th and is still ongoing: Nation states emerging from empires and advancing towards cultural homogeneity, to the detriment of multiculturalism which existed under most empires. When Turkey "emerged" this involved a similar process, expulsion (and worse) of Armenians & Greeks, and conformity pressure on other minorities. A similar thing happened in Poland, which was barely more than 50% polish speaking catholic when my grandmother was born there, and is 9X% polish catholic now. When Ireland emerged from Britain, migrations and border gerrymandering ensured "Irish Catholic" homegeneity.

by netcan 8y ago

tronko 8y ago

That's not true at all. In Spain no language was forbidden as was in France and Jews were expelled because - The pressure of mendicant orders. - The pope.

netcan 8y ago
I think we are speaking at different levels, sort of. Jews (later Muslims) were given an actual, literal choice. For other groups/languages/whatnot it was "metaphorical." Some of these processes are literal decrees, banning practices, languages or people. Some are less legible, like "soft power" in modern terms. I'm interested in the long term results, which was (in the case of Spain early on, and many/most places subsequently) a decisive change from multiculturalism (like the sephardi community of Bosnia represents) to national monoculturalism. That is, over the centuries societal pressures and dynamics were such that a more monolithic identity succeeded a patchwork of language, dialect and culture. My argument (I suspect we disagree) is that Spain was an earlier example of something that happened widely in the 19th, 20th and is still ongoing: Nation states emerging from empires and advancing towards cultural homogeneity, to the detriment of multiculturalism which existed under most empires. When Turkey "emerged" this involved a similar process, expulsion (and worse) of Armenians & Greeks, and conformity pressure on other minorities. A similar thing happened in Poland, which was barely more than 50% polish speaking catholic when my grandmother was born there, and is 9X% polish catholic now. When Ireland emerged from Britain, migrations and border gerrymandering ensured "Irish Catholic" homegeneity.