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> How do you think people become wealthy in the first place? It's almost always connected to providing value to lots of people. I find that hard to believe, ho

> How do you think people become wealthy in the first place? It's almost always connected to providing value to lots of people. I find that hard to believe, honestly. It seems like the biggest gains are to be made in rent-seeking, milking your customers, monopolising and forming cartels and just outright fraud.

manigandham 8y ago
You don't have to believe, let's look at facts. Do you have any examples of what you're describing? Meanwhile in our lifetimes we've seen Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, Stripe, Atlassian, Uber, Airbnb, and dozens more create massive value, and that's just in the software/tech industry.
- ionised 8y ago
  Amazon didn't pay their workers a living wage for a long time, having them subsidised with taxpayer money and used their position to be be able to sell at a loss to destroy competition. Plus their dubious tax arangements. Facebook is Facebook. I find their business model, their dark patterns, and their lies to people and politicians to be an example of what I'm talking about. Uber basically skirted the laws of every city they operated in as if they had immunity. Not to mention all the other scandals the compan has been involved in or responsible for. As for the other companies I don't know enough of their inner workings over the years, but I'm not convinced they are squeaky clean at all.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    You seem to skip straight to the end without realizing these companies did not even exist a few decades ago. They grew to their size because they provide value. I've already said previously that companies tend toward monopolies and that's when problems begin, but that's on govt antitrust to handle properly. Whether it does is another issue, but it doesn't erase the fact that people have gone from 0 to B by creating companies from nothing and making a large impact of society.
    - omegaworks 8y ago
      >but that's on govt antitrust to handle properly It always seems to be someone else's problem when it comes to wealth adhering to the codified norms of a society. >it doesn't erase the fact that people have gone from 0 to B by creating companies from nothing and making a large impact of society How does the adage go? "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."
      - manigandham 8y ago
        The government is the people. Just like corporations at that size are far more than a single person. To reiterate for the 3rd time, all things eventually become too big and need to be managed, but that has nothing to do with value creation leading to wealth generation. I've yet to see a comment on how that's invalid beyond emotional complaints. >> How does the adage go? "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime." And there we go. Not sure how that's rational or productive. I guess you'll be first to tell every startup that exits successfully that they're now criminals for what they've done.
        ionised 8y ago
        > I guess you'll be first to tell every startup that exits successfully that they're now criminals for what they've done. Now you're just being ridiculous and I'm guessing you know it.
    - ionised 8y ago
      > but it doesn't erase the fact that people have gone from 0 to B by creating companies from nothing and making a large impact of society. That doesn't invalidate anything I said and it doesn't support what you were saying very well at all. Hitmen, heroin dealers and elephant poachers provide value to some people as well, but to say we should encourage those things simply because they provided 'value' is sociopathic.
      - manigandham 8y ago
        I think you lost track of your own thread. Those things you mentioned are illegal. Nobody is saying you should do illegal things. But wealth generation is tied to value creation, and your stance seems to be that all wealth generation is from criminal means when that's clearly not true in the slightest. What else is there to say here?

manigandham 8y ago

You don't have to believe, let's look at facts. Do you have any examples of what you're describing? Meanwhile in our lifetimes we've seen Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, Stripe, Atlassian, Uber, Airbnb, and dozens more create massive value, and that's just in the software/tech industry.

ionised 8y ago
Amazon didn't pay their workers a living wage for a long time, having them subsidised with taxpayer money and used their position to be be able to sell at a loss to destroy competition. Plus their dubious tax arangements. Facebook is Facebook. I find their business model, their dark patterns, and their lies to people and politicians to be an example of what I'm talking about. Uber basically skirted the laws of every city they operated in as if they had immunity. Not to mention all the other scandals the compan has been involved in or responsible for. As for the other companies I don't know enough of their inner workings over the years, but I'm not convinced they are squeaky clean at all.
- manigandham 8y ago
  You seem to skip straight to the end without realizing these companies did not even exist a few decades ago. They grew to their size because they provide value. I've already said previously that companies tend toward monopolies and that's when problems begin, but that's on govt antitrust to handle properly. Whether it does is another issue, but it doesn't erase the fact that people have gone from 0 to B by creating companies from nothing and making a large impact of society.
  - omegaworks 8y ago
    >but that's on govt antitrust to handle properly It always seems to be someone else's problem when it comes to wealth adhering to the codified norms of a society. >it doesn't erase the fact that people have gone from 0 to B by creating companies from nothing and making a large impact of society How does the adage go? "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."
    - manigandham 8y ago
      The government is the people. Just like corporations at that size are far more than a single person. To reiterate for the 3rd time, all things eventually become too big and need to be managed, but that has nothing to do with value creation leading to wealth generation. I've yet to see a comment on how that's invalid beyond emotional complaints. >> How does the adage go? "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime." And there we go. Not sure how that's rational or productive. I guess you'll be first to tell every startup that exits successfully that they're now criminals for what they've done.
      - ionised 8y ago
        > I guess you'll be first to tell every startup that exits successfully that they're now criminals for what they've done. Now you're just being ridiculous and I'm guessing you know it.
  - ionised 8y ago
    > but it doesn't erase the fact that people have gone from 0 to B by creating companies from nothing and making a large impact of society. That doesn't invalidate anything I said and it doesn't support what you were saying very well at all. Hitmen, heroin dealers and elephant poachers provide value to some people as well, but to say we should encourage those things simply because they provided 'value' is sociopathic.
    - manigandham 8y ago
      I think you lost track of your own thread. Those things you mentioned are illegal. Nobody is saying you should do illegal things. But wealth generation is tied to value creation, and your stance seems to be that all wealth generation is from criminal means when that's clearly not true in the slightest. What else is there to say here?