6 ms·

Barcelona's Sagrada Familia agrees to deal over lack of building permit

45 points by prostoalex 8y ago

mabbo 8y ago
The most marvelous thing about the Sagrada Familia (okay, second to how insanely beautiful it is for a Catholic cathedral) is the ticketing system: There are almost no lines to get in. Every ticket you buy has a time and day- a 15 minutes period in which you may enter. And there are a limited number of tickets per 15-minute period. This does mean you have to plan your visit ahead by a day or two, but you'll be rewarded with not needing to line up for more than a few minutes. Operationally, the management have an exact steady stream of visitors from open to close, so staffing can be just as even, which I can only imagine reduces costs. And management can also tell if they've priced entry correctly by seeing if they have open spots all week or having three weeks' backlog sold out. Could we please do this for everything that has a line up? It's a wonderful system.
- phyller 8y ago
  I've also seen this at Disney World and the Washington Monument. Agree, it is so much better. Waiting in line (or traffic) is such a waste of human life and potential.
- drb91 8y ago
  OTOH visitors who discover it will be unable to explore it. Seems like a tradeoff.
  - saudioger 8y ago
    that's like "discovering" the eiffel tower, it's not like you're stumbling into an unexplored land
    - drb91 8y ago
      I didn't know about this Cathedral until I was looking into what I might find in Barcelona earlier this year. It's entirely easy to imagine not knowing about it until I showed up.
      - geezerjay 8y ago
        That's like being surprised to see the pope in Rome.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        drb91 8y ago
        I’m just another rube, i guess. Got me!
    - jowiar 8y ago
      There's (at least one) order of magnitude difference in popularity between the two. I don't think the average American could name the Sagrada Familia from a picture of it, for instance. For me, when I travel, sometimes I don't really look up what there is to see/do in a city until I'm there. When I landed in Barcelona, I didn't know what the Sagrada Familia was.
      - subroutine 8y ago
        Sure it's a tradeoff. But also consider, like the eiffel tower, both are large architectural installations with beauty one can marvel from a distance. No ticket needed. Haven't had your fill from the outside views, and want a deeper look, you'll probably go back home/hotel and look it up, learn a bunch about Gaudi on wikipedia, find out you can book tickets online. Get them, a couple of days later you can go back and explore the inside, and find that everyone there seems to be a little knowledgeable about Gaudi, and there are no lines, since there are no walk-ins.
      - antaviana 8y ago
        This is because the Sagrada Familia is still way from being finished. It was supposed to be an atonement temple relying on donations of sinners for progress but unfortunately there were not enough sinners in the Barcelona area or these were tight with their money. Once the huge dome is finished, I’m sure it will play in the same league as ND in Paris.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    I bought the tickets on the spot online. People in front of me, making time whatsapping to get tickets. Suckers.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    You likely could find the slot the same day, it's not likely 100% daily tickets always sell (I've been there and while the traffic is substantial, it's not packed, so looks like the capacity is managed quite well).
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    How many people go to Barcelona unaware of the existence of the Sagrada Familia? That would be like going to Paris and being surprised to see the Notre-Dame.
    - drb91 8y ago
      Surprise can be the best part of travel.
- xvf22 8y ago
  I was also impressed with the ticket experience. Everything flowed nicely. I visited almost a decade ago and I'd like to go back to see how much has changed since then.
- mamon 8y ago
  >> This does mean you have to plan your visit ahead by a day or two Actually, when I went to visit Sagrada Famillia I didn't know a first thing about its ticketing system, went straight to it, and then ended up finding their website on my smartphone and buying ticket online. They still had tickets with time of entry in 15 minutes.
- smsm42 8y ago
  Good system, yes. Though I am still not sure why you can go only to one tower. I am not sure it's worth going to the both, but why not allow it? I don't think it would add that much to the traffic...
- factsaresacred 8y ago
  > how insanely beautiful it is for a Catholic cathedral Beautiful Catholic cathedrals are the norm not the exception. France alone contains some of the most mesmerizing cathedrals you're likely too see. Although, yes, the design of Sagrada Familia is exceptional.
  - mabbo 8y ago
    My wife and I love to travel, but we've reached a point where we don't bother with cathedrals anymore. They all seem to be identical to the last one. Oh sure, little touches here and there that are unique, but rarely worth the wait in line and time spent. At St David's in Wales last month, we were way more interested in the ruins of the Bishop's Palace than by the actual cathedral next to it. The Sagrada Familia is such a different place. It is art with a function.
- Galaxity 8y ago
  Sagrada familia isnt a cathedral. Its a church, albeit a large and fancy one, and now a basilica due to that.
- Markoff 8y ago
  personally i find it disgusting to have to pay for ticket to enter church, unseen in many European countries, almost ridiculous on par to pay ticket to enter nature (national park), what's next ticket to enter square or use sidewalk?
bennettfeely 8y ago
This seems absolutely insane, maybe someone can provide more context. Looks like a leftist government money grab to me. How much tourism revenue does 4.5 million visitors annually bring the city of Barcelona? What other famous national landmarks (likely Church-owned) in Spain can be retroactively fined for being constructed without a building permit?
- phyller 8y ago
  Yea, it does seem like an excuse for the money raised by the church to make it into the local politicians hands. However, this can be a legitimate issue. For example, New Haven, Connecticut, the site of Yale University, has become a notoriously crime-ridden area. It's not a very big place and something like half the property in the city is owned by non-profits (a few universities, a few large hospitals). Therefore the city's tax base is cut in half (US city revenues are largely from property taxes), but it still needs to provide infrastructure, police, public transportation, etc for everyone. But it makes it seem more suspicious doing it like this instead of passing a new law that formalizes payments for services.
  - why_only_15 8y ago
    Yale pays $15m in taxes per year apparently, or at least did in 2011. https://web.archive.org/web/20110907184503/http://www.yale.edu/onhsa/about_YaleNH.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20110907184503/http://www.yale.e...
    - colechristensen 8y ago
      That seems minuscule. The Yale endowment is a hair away from $30 billion dollars. Their budget is $4 billion per year. I don't feel good about tax benefits for organizations that big.
    - phyller 8y ago
      I'm not disparaging Yale at all, just explaining how a lot of untaxable property can affect a city. Yale owns a lot of commercial properties in New Haven, including stores and offices. I'm sure they pay taxes on those. And like a lot of universities they pay for their own police and emergency services which takes a burden off the city. But there is also University of New Haven, Southern Connecticut State University, Albertus Magnus College, and Gateway Community College, as well as Yale-New Haven Hospital and all its satellite buildings and St Raphael. This is all in a town of 130,000 people, a quarter of whom live below the poverty line. Again, not saying any of these are bad institutions, or that the problems in New Haven are their fault, just that it is a tricky situation to deal with. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/31/yale-new-haven-hospital-community-trust-261660 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/31/yale-new-haven-hos...
changoplatanero 8y ago
Isn't it ironic that what Gaudi intended to be a monument to God has become a monument to Gaudi?
- labster 8y ago
  Cathedral building has always been about temporal prestige, with patrons, cardinals, cities, and nations competing to build the most elaborate house of worship. There's no unexpected element in your claim, therefore it is not ironic.
- smsm42 8y ago
  Why is it ironic and why can't it be both?
blahedo 8y ago
Serious question: were building permits required in Barcelona at the time construction began? (Side comment not worth its own response to others' posts: the church is not technically a cathedral—ie the seat of the local bishop—but rather a basilica.)
- subroutine 8y ago
  That would be surprising judging from some of the the pictures from the early 1900s https://bit.ly/2EyDkEt https://bit.ly/2EyDkEt https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/4a/1d/064a1d213e4c75d4d48d37ab15b8df32.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/4a/1d/064a1d213e4c75d4d48d...
codedokode 8y ago
What's the point of getting building permit if you can build whatever you want anyway?
cpcallen 8y ago
If this were in the United Kingdom, the local council would insist the building be torn down.
tomohawk 8y ago
This looks to be a way for the city to coerce some money from an organization, and which fits into an existing bureaucratic process, giving it the patina of legitimacy. It is a bit surprising that the cathedral didn't just immediately stop construction and close down access with a big sign saying what was going on. After all, its all about complying with the law and all. They could have even started making plans to move the cathedral to a different site with all the proper permits and everything. The city would have caved for sure. If you're not willing to go to the mat, you'll always get taken advantage of.

45 points by prostoalex 8y ago

The most marvelous thing about the Sagrada Familia (okay, second to how insanely beautiful it is for a Catholic cathedral) is the ticketing system: There are almost no lines to get in. Every ticket you buy has a time and day- a 15 minutes period in which you may enter. And there are a limited number of tickets per 15-minute period. This does mean you have to plan your visit ahead by a day or two, but you'll be rewarded with not needing to line up for more than a few minutes. Operationally, the management have an exact steady stream of visitors from open to close, so staffing can be just as even, which I can only imagine reduces costs. And management can also tell if they've priced entry correctly by seeing if they have open spots all week or having three weeks' backlog sold out. Could we please do this for everything that has a line up? It's a wonderful system.

phyller 8y ago
I've also seen this at Disney World and the Washington Monument. Agree, it is so much better. Waiting in line (or traffic) is such a waste of human life and potential.
drb91 8y ago
OTOH visitors who discover it will be unable to explore it. Seems like a tradeoff.
- saudioger 8y ago
  that's like "discovering" the eiffel tower, it's not like you're stumbling into an unexplored land
  - drb91 8y ago
    I didn't know about this Cathedral until I was looking into what I might find in Barcelona earlier this year. It's entirely easy to imagine not knowing about it until I showed up.
    - geezerjay 8y ago
      That's like being surprised to see the pope in Rome.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - drb91 8y ago
        I’m just another rube, i guess. Got me!
  - jowiar 8y ago
    There's (at least one) order of magnitude difference in popularity between the two. I don't think the average American could name the Sagrada Familia from a picture of it, for instance. For me, when I travel, sometimes I don't really look up what there is to see/do in a city until I'm there. When I landed in Barcelona, I didn't know what the Sagrada Familia was.
    - subroutine 8y ago
      Sure it's a tradeoff. But also consider, like the eiffel tower, both are large architectural installations with beauty one can marvel from a distance. No ticket needed. Haven't had your fill from the outside views, and want a deeper look, you'll probably go back home/hotel and look it up, learn a bunch about Gaudi on wikipedia, find out you can book tickets online. Get them, a couple of days later you can go back and explore the inside, and find that everyone there seems to be a little knowledgeable about Gaudi, and there are no lines, since there are no walk-ins.
    - antaviana 8y ago
      This is because the Sagrada Familia is still way from being finished. It was supposed to be an atonement temple relying on donations of sinners for progress but unfortunately there were not enough sinners in the Barcelona area or these were tight with their money. Once the huge dome is finished, I’m sure it will play in the same league as ND in Paris.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  I bought the tickets on the spot online. People in front of me, making time whatsapping to get tickets. Suckers.
- smsm42 8y ago
  You likely could find the slot the same day, it's not likely 100% daily tickets always sell (I've been there and while the traffic is substantial, it's not packed, so looks like the capacity is managed quite well).
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  How many people go to Barcelona unaware of the existence of the Sagrada Familia? That would be like going to Paris and being surprised to see the Notre-Dame.
  - drb91 8y ago
    Surprise can be the best part of travel.
xvf22 8y ago
I was also impressed with the ticket experience. Everything flowed nicely. I visited almost a decade ago and I'd like to go back to see how much has changed since then.
mamon 8y ago
>> This does mean you have to plan your visit ahead by a day or two Actually, when I went to visit Sagrada Famillia I didn't know a first thing about its ticketing system, went straight to it, and then ended up finding their website on my smartphone and buying ticket online. They still had tickets with time of entry in 15 minutes.
smsm42 8y ago
Good system, yes. Though I am still not sure why you can go only to one tower. I am not sure it's worth going to the both, but why not allow it? I don't think it would add that much to the traffic...
factsaresacred 8y ago
> how insanely beautiful it is for a Catholic cathedral Beautiful Catholic cathedrals are the norm not the exception. France alone contains some of the most mesmerizing cathedrals you're likely too see. Although, yes, the design of Sagrada Familia is exceptional.
- mabbo 8y ago
  My wife and I love to travel, but we've reached a point where we don't bother with cathedrals anymore. They all seem to be identical to the last one. Oh sure, little touches here and there that are unique, but rarely worth the wait in line and time spent. At St David's in Wales last month, we were way more interested in the ruins of the Bishop's Palace than by the actual cathedral next to it. The Sagrada Familia is such a different place. It is art with a function.
Galaxity 8y ago
Sagrada familia isnt a cathedral. Its a church, albeit a large and fancy one, and now a basilica due to that.
Markoff 8y ago
personally i find it disgusting to have to pay for ticket to enter church, unseen in many European countries, almost ridiculous on par to pay ticket to enter nature (national park), what's next ticket to enter square or use sidewalk?

bennettfeely 8y ago

This seems absolutely insane, maybe someone can provide more context. Looks like a leftist government money grab to me. How much tourism revenue does 4.5 million visitors annually bring the city of Barcelona? What other famous national landmarks (likely Church-owned) in Spain can be retroactively fined for being constructed without a building permit?

phyller 8y ago
Yea, it does seem like an excuse for the money raised by the church to make it into the local politicians hands. However, this can be a legitimate issue. For example, New Haven, Connecticut, the site of Yale University, has become a notoriously crime-ridden area. It's not a very big place and something like half the property in the city is owned by non-profits (a few universities, a few large hospitals). Therefore the city's tax base is cut in half (US city revenues are largely from property taxes), but it still needs to provide infrastructure, police, public transportation, etc for everyone. But it makes it seem more suspicious doing it like this instead of passing a new law that formalizes payments for services.
- why_only_15 8y ago
  Yale pays $15m in taxes per year apparently, or at least did in 2011. https://web.archive.org/web/20110907184503/http://www.yale.edu/onhsa/about_YaleNH.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20110907184503/http://www.yale.e...
  - colechristensen 8y ago
    That seems minuscule. The Yale endowment is a hair away from $30 billion dollars. Their budget is $4 billion per year. I don't feel good about tax benefits for organizations that big.
  - phyller 8y ago
    I'm not disparaging Yale at all, just explaining how a lot of untaxable property can affect a city. Yale owns a lot of commercial properties in New Haven, including stores and offices. I'm sure they pay taxes on those. And like a lot of universities they pay for their own police and emergency services which takes a burden off the city. But there is also University of New Haven, Southern Connecticut State University, Albertus Magnus College, and Gateway Community College, as well as Yale-New Haven Hospital and all its satellite buildings and St Raphael. This is all in a town of 130,000 people, a quarter of whom live below the poverty line. Again, not saying any of these are bad institutions, or that the problems in New Haven are their fault, just that it is a tricky situation to deal with. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/31/yale-new-haven-hospital-community-trust-261660 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/31/yale-new-haven-hos...

changoplatanero 8y ago

Isn't it ironic that what Gaudi intended to be a monument to God has become a monument to Gaudi?

labster 8y ago
Cathedral building has always been about temporal prestige, with patrons, cardinals, cities, and nations competing to build the most elaborate house of worship. There's no unexpected element in your claim, therefore it is not ironic.
smsm42 8y ago
Why is it ironic and why can't it be both?

blahedo 8y ago

Serious question: were building permits required in Barcelona at the time construction began? (Side comment not worth its own response to others' posts: the church is not technically a cathedral—ie the seat of the local bishop—but rather a basilica.)

subroutine 8y ago
That would be surprising judging from some of the the pictures from the early 1900s https://bit.ly/2EyDkEt https://bit.ly/2EyDkEt https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/4a/1d/064a1d213e4c75d4d48d37ab15b8df32.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/4a/1d/064a1d213e4c75d4d48d...

codedokode 8y ago

What's the point of getting building permit if you can build whatever you want anyway?

cpcallen 8y ago

If this were in the United Kingdom, the local council would insist the building be torn down.

tomohawk 8y ago

This looks to be a way for the city to coerce some money from an organization, and which fits into an existing bureaucratic process, giving it the patina of legitimacy. It is a bit surprising that the cathedral didn't just immediately stop construction and close down access with a big sign saying what was going on. After all, its all about complying with the law and all. They could have even started making plans to move the cathedral to a different site with all the proper permits and everything. The city would have caved for sure. If you're not willing to go to the mat, you'll always get taken advantage of.