4 ms·

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in m

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds like "dj" [dʒ] in the word, djente (people), “z” [z] in the word roza (rose) and “sh” [ʃ] in the word pasharo (bird) that don’t exist at all in modern European Spanish. Other direct matches and similarities: Fazer - To do (Portuguese), lavorare - to work (Italian), djente - people (Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation of gente), pássaro - bird (Portuguese). Even the z in roza, for rose, is typical of Portuguese pronunciation. ____ Not related to the article but something I always found odd: In Italian, 'morbido' means 'soft' (used to describe food, among other things), while the English 'morbid' is translated as 'macabro'. Italian etymological references say this is due to the softness of diseased muscles, and it somehow just became 'soft'. All of the other Romance languages use the term in its original meaning.

croisillon 8y ago
in french, "morbide" is often used indifferently for "macabre" (i guess because death is "mort"?) but according to the dictionary it means something that makes you sick (un désir morbide) or sicker than you already are
- himlion 8y ago
  In Dutch they are used interchangeable as well.
pseingatl 8y ago
The etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery." I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is "pasharo" thus supplying the explanation. How do you say "you" in Ladino? Is "usted" (possibly from Arabic "ustaad") used, or do they use an Italian or Portuguese cognate?
- zydeco 8y ago
  "usted" in Spanish comes from a contraction of "vuestra merced" (your mercy, your grace), similar to "você" in Portuguese, "vostede" in Galician, and "vostè" in Catalan. It's still abbreviated as "Vd." sometimes in Spanish.
- perkee 8y ago
  >I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is "pasharo" thus supplying the explanation. You might enjoy, as I did, this explanation of why X is the unknown quantity in Algebra: another case where "sh" got marked as 'x' which is pronounced the same as 'j'. https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_why_is_x_the_unknown https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_why_is_x_the_unknown It's a bit of a just-so-story without much in the way of evidence though though, so there's a rebuttal here https://gizmodo.com/why-we-use-x-as-the-unknown-in-math-1657254357 https://gizmodo.com/why-we-use-x-as-the-unknown-in-math-1657...
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
  > the etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery." Maybe. But this is not generally agreed upon by Romance linguists. The more generally accepted etymology connects to the name of the Biblical Maccabees. The OED says: "The Middle French word occurs first in Jean le Fèvre's Respit de la Mort (1376), where the author says ‘Je fis de Macabré la dance’: this is apparently a claim to have written a work called la danse Macabré. In form the word might be a popular alteration of Old French Macabé Maccabaeus (examples of Judas Macabré(s) occur at the end of the 12th cent.): see Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch at Macchabeus for investigation of the range of forms and spellings attested in Middle French for both the present word and for words and expressions independently derived from the biblical proper name. As regards meaning, it may be connected with the late medieval liturgical dance or procession called chorea Machabaeorum in Latin (Besançon, 1453) and in Middle Dutch Makkabeusdans (15th cent.), which has been explained as arising from 2 Maccabees 7: Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch suggests also the association of the liturgical office of the dead with 2 Maccabees 12:43–6 in the Vulgate (verses 43–5 in the King James Bible) as a reason for a link between a cult of the Maccabees and the dance of the dead tradition in art and literature. In Middle French the metaphor aller a la dance De Macabré ‘to die’ is found in the 15th cent. A less likely explanation is that Macabré was the name of the artist who painted the picture which suggested the first poem on the subject. There is no evidence to support the theory that the word derives from Arabic maqābir, plural of maqbara cemetery (Moroccan colloquial Arabic məqāber, plural of məqebra tomb), or from Syriac meqabberēy gravediggers. For summaries of further explanations which have been advanced see Trésor de la langue française at macabre, Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch at Macchabeus."
Arnt 8y ago
There's a passage in the introduction to one of Joseph Conrad's books, I think it's Lord Jim, where he's puzzled by a reader's reaction to the book: An Italian lady found something "morbid".
harperlee 8y ago
> Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp French also uses “manquer”, and there are traces in spanish (such as a manco being a person that lacks an arm).
- mns 8y ago
  In romanian, a more isolated romance language, "mancare" means food and "a manca" is to eat.
  - simias 8y ago
    Well "manger" is "to eat" in French and "mangiare" in Italian which apparently both come from latin "manducare" so maybe the Romanian word comes from here? Meanwhile French "manquer" and Italian "mancare" seem to come "From Latin mancus, from Proto-Indo-European *man-ko- (“maimed in the hand”)." Actually we still have "manchot" in modern French to mean one-armed which I always assumed came from "manche" (sleeve) but seems to actually have a different etymology. That's all sourced from the wiktionary by the way.
    - personlurking 8y ago
      The "man-ko-" term seems to confirm why, as I mentioned at the top, mancar in Portuguese came to mean to limp. To say someone is "manco" is effectively to say they're maimed in some way. "Sleeve" in Portuguese is "manga", which in turn is also the word for mango, the fruit. The Latin "manica" meant "sleeve", while the name of the fruit originally comes from an Indian language, into English, via the Portuguese. Etymology is quite the rabbit hole!
      - peach 8y ago
        In Italian "monco" means missing an arm, which comes very close to it
- buckminster 8y ago
  And English manky.
islon 8y ago
"All of the other Romance languages use the term in its original meaning." Nope, in (Brazillian) portuguese "mórbido" means morbid, like in english, and never means soft (suave, macio).
- personlurking 8y ago
  Correct. This is what I mean when I say original meaning.
lultimouomo 8y ago
> Other direct matches and similarities: Fazer - To do (Portuguese), lavorare - to work (Italian), djente - people (Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation of gente), pássaro - bird (Portuguese). Even the z in roza, for rose, is typical of Portuguese pronunciation. More italian matches: * fazer -> fare (which is irregular and declined like the verb was "facere") * roza -> rosa (with a [z] sounding s) * djente -> gente (with both dj and g sounding [dʒ])
simias 8y ago
Regarding your note there are other examples of false friends which make for funny pairs. Italian "sinistro" is left, but in French (and from there English) "sinistre/sinister" has a completely different meaning. Now we have a similar thing between French and English: "gauche" means left in French but "Lacking grace or social polish; awkward or tactless" in English. It's actually interesting how the left and right have such a strong figurative meaning to them, left being bad (sinister, gauche, etc...) and right being... well, righteous. It's embedded deeply in our languages.
- personlurking 8y ago
  I think it's a case of chicken or the egg. At some point it becomes hard to tell which came first. There are a few possible explanations here, regarding sinister: https://www.etymonline.com/word/sinister#etymonline_v_23561 https://www.etymonline.com/word/sinister#etymonline_v_23561

croisillon 8y ago

in french, "morbide" is often used indifferently for "macabre" (i guess because death is "mort"?) but according to the dictionary it means something that makes you sick (un désir morbide) or sicker than you already are

himlion 8y ago
In Dutch they are used interchangeable as well.

pseingatl 8y ago

The etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery." I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is "pasharo" thus supplying the explanation. How do you say "you" in Ladino? Is "usted" (possibly from Arabic "ustaad") used, or do they use an Italian or Portuguese cognate?

zydeco 8y ago
"usted" in Spanish comes from a contraction of "vuestra merced" (your mercy, your grace), similar to "você" in Portuguese, "vostede" in Galician, and "vostè" in Catalan. It's still abbreviated as "Vd." sometimes in Spanish.
perkee 8y ago
>I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is "pasharo" thus supplying the explanation. You might enjoy, as I did, this explanation of why X is the unknown quantity in Algebra: another case where "sh" got marked as 'x' which is pronounced the same as 'j'. https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_why_is_x_the_unknown https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_why_is_x_the_unknown It's a bit of a just-so-story without much in the way of evidence though though, so there's a rebuttal here https://gizmodo.com/why-we-use-x-as-the-unknown-in-math-1657254357 https://gizmodo.com/why-we-use-x-as-the-unknown-in-math-1657...
_emacsomancer_ 8y ago
> the etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery." Maybe. But this is not generally agreed upon by Romance linguists. The more generally accepted etymology connects to the name of the Biblical Maccabees. The OED says: "The Middle French word occurs first in Jean le Fèvre's Respit de la Mort (1376), where the author says ‘Je fis de Macabré la dance’: this is apparently a claim to have written a work called la danse Macabré. In form the word might be a popular alteration of Old French Macabé Maccabaeus (examples of Judas Macabré(s) occur at the end of the 12th cent.): see Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch at Macchabeus for investigation of the range of forms and spellings attested in Middle French for both the present word and for words and expressions independently derived from the biblical proper name. As regards meaning, it may be connected with the late medieval liturgical dance or procession called chorea Machabaeorum in Latin (Besançon, 1453) and in Middle Dutch Makkabeusdans (15th cent.), which has been explained as arising from 2 Maccabees 7: Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch suggests also the association of the liturgical office of the dead with 2 Maccabees 12:43–6 in the Vulgate (verses 43–5 in the King James Bible) as a reason for a link between a cult of the Maccabees and the dance of the dead tradition in art and literature. In Middle French the metaphor aller a la dance De Macabré ‘to die’ is found in the 15th cent. A less likely explanation is that Macabré was the name of the artist who painted the picture which suggested the first poem on the subject. There is no evidence to support the theory that the word derives from Arabic maqābir, plural of maqbara cemetery (Moroccan colloquial Arabic məqāber, plural of məqebra tomb), or from Syriac meqabberēy gravediggers. For summaries of further explanations which have been advanced see Trésor de la langue française at macabre, Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch at Macchabeus."

Arnt 8y ago

There's a passage in the introduction to one of Joseph Conrad's books, I think it's Lord Jim, where he's puzzled by a reader's reaction to the book: An Italian lady found something "morbid".

harperlee 8y ago

> Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp French also uses “manquer”, and there are traces in spanish (such as a manco being a person that lacks an arm).

mns 8y ago
In romanian, a more isolated romance language, "mancare" means food and "a manca" is to eat.
- simias 8y ago
  Well "manger" is "to eat" in French and "mangiare" in Italian which apparently both come from latin "manducare" so maybe the Romanian word comes from here? Meanwhile French "manquer" and Italian "mancare" seem to come "From Latin mancus, from Proto-Indo-European *man-ko- (“maimed in the hand”)." Actually we still have "manchot" in modern French to mean one-armed which I always assumed came from "manche" (sleeve) but seems to actually have a different etymology. That's all sourced from the wiktionary by the way.
  - personlurking 8y ago
    The "man-ko-" term seems to confirm why, as I mentioned at the top, mancar in Portuguese came to mean to limp. To say someone is "manco" is effectively to say they're maimed in some way. "Sleeve" in Portuguese is "manga", which in turn is also the word for mango, the fruit. The Latin "manica" meant "sleeve", while the name of the fruit originally comes from an Indian language, into English, via the Portuguese. Etymology is quite the rabbit hole!
    - peach 8y ago
      In Italian "monco" means missing an arm, which comes very close to it
buckminster 8y ago
And English manky.

islon 8y ago

"All of the other Romance languages use the term in its original meaning." Nope, in (Brazillian) portuguese "mórbido" means morbid, like in english, and never means soft (suave, macio).

personlurking 8y ago
Correct. This is what I mean when I say original meaning.

lultimouomo 8y ago

> Other direct matches and similarities: Fazer - To do (Portuguese), lavorare - to work (Italian), djente - people (Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation of gente), pássaro - bird (Portuguese). Even the z in roza, for rose, is typical of Portuguese pronunciation. More italian matches: * fazer -> fare (which is irregular and declined like the verb was "facere") * roza -> rosa (with a [z] sounding s) * djente -> gente (with both dj and g sounding [dʒ])

simias 8y ago

Regarding your note there are other examples of false friends which make for funny pairs. Italian "sinistro" is left, but in French (and from there English) "sinistre/sinister" has a completely different meaning. Now we have a similar thing between French and English: "gauche" means left in French but "Lacking grace or social polish; awkward or tactless" in English. It's actually interesting how the left and right have such a strong figurative meaning to them, left being bad (sinister, gauche, etc...) and right being... well, righteous. It's embedded deeply in our languages.

personlurking 8y ago
I think it's a case of chicken or the egg. At some point it becomes hard to tell which came first. There are a few possible explanations here, regarding sinister: https://www.etymonline.com/word/sinister#etymonline_v_23561 https://www.etymonline.com/word/sinister#etymonline_v_23561