4 ms·

> So what was recently a £20 simple repair to your fridge or cooker is now a £200 major component and more labour than it's probably worth. I think this is a l

> So what was recently a £20 simple repair to your fridge or cooker is now a £200 major component and more labour than it's probably worth. I think this is a large part of the problem. Our goods have become so cheap to produce that they're cheaper to buy new than to repair. For example, I'm rebuilding a small motorcycle engine for a Honda. I can rebuild the engine, paying the machine-work labor cost and a small amount of parts, and it's actually just a bit more expensive than to buy a brand-new Chinese clone that's been in production for over a decade. Labour costs for repairs have gone up, while consumer goods have gotten cheaper. In a lot of cases it's simply more cost-effective to replace than to rebuild. No mechanic rebuilds water pumps in the shop anymore than a home appliance tech would fix a coffee maker. DIY is largely the one holdout for repairs, and it's unreasonable to think that every person can have the aptitude to fix any device that may break in their lives.

aaronblohowiak 8y ago
Raw materials are too cheap — the externality of their dissipation has not even begun to be appreciated.
yellow_postit 8y ago
I wonder how much a carbon tax would change the economics here.
xg15 8y ago
> In a lot of cases it's simply more cost-effective to replace than to rebuild. I think a lot of this is because we can choose to not factor in a lot of additional costs that will show up in other forms. E.g., unsustainable disposal leadss to environmental problems and hazardous living conditions, while the cheap chinese labour only works with far weaker labor protections than we have here.
- growlist 8y ago
  If we can apply the same ingenuity to the end of life stage as to the creation stage, it actually makes sense to not bother attempting to fix - why expend costly human effort on individual patches when innumerable hours have been spent refining industrial processes to bring the cost of a replacement down? Just buy the replacement. Though of course even with the cleanest lifecycle there's still the power requirement and associated carbon, but perhaps even that can be taken care of via mitigation. I should say instinctively this still seems kind of wrong and wasteful to me, but then on the other hand when so much time has been invested in processes it kind of makes sense to take advantage of that efficiency. I should also say that this still leaves manufacturers with no excuse for taking the decision to deliberately stop making consumables, which is the kind of thing I would like to see legislation against.
  - xg15 8y ago
    I don't see what one has to do with the other. Even with the most efficient production process, you will end up with landfills of toxic waste if your strategy to make your devices throwaway-only. Also note that a lot of "ingenuity" is production is just shipping parts across the world from wherever human labor is cheapest.
    - growlist 8y ago
      > If we can apply the same ingenuity to the end of life stage Did you miss above? I'm saying that IF devices can be recycled effectively at end of life, it may be more effective in economic terms to do away with the idea of making the thing repairable (beyond consumables) in life. > Also note that a lot of "ingenuity" is production is just shipping parts across the world from wherever human labor is cheapest. I think that's a little too cynical - take the car industry as an example - are you really going to argue that outsourcing to reduce labour costs has played a more significant role than technology and quality shifts? If so perhaps you should warn Germany, who still seem to be cranking out millions of cars every year, paying German wages, and turning a profit..
- Ibethewalrus 8y ago
  Exactly, the cost difference has been transferred to China
reacweb 8y ago
Consumer goods are cheap also because the cost of their disposal (or recycling) is subsidised by society.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Thing is it's still a £20 component being used often enough (or at electronic supplier rates possibly a 50p component), it's just been riveted or soldered to a few other things to ensure it can't be bought without £180 of pointless other things. Even with higher labour that should make a £50 (£20 + £30 labour) repair of your £500 appliance feasible. It gets pointless when it's approaching a sealed unit with a £300 repair of a £500 appliance (£200 combined unit + £100 labour).
stult 8y ago
>DIY is largely the one holdout for repairs, and it's unreasonable to think that every person can have the aptitude to fix any device that may break in their lives. It's not unreasonable at all. Every time you swap out the filter on your coffee machine, you are effectively DIY repairing it. The same idea applies to longer life components. If they are designed to be easily swapped out, the repair requires no skill at all. Now, we simply swap out the entire product. The problem is ultimately economic and behavioral,though. People simply can't allocate the necessary attentional resources to prefer repairable products below a certain price point. Meaning, you probably consider repairability when making a large purchase like a car by looking at cost of ownership. But it's simply impractical to be as thorough when making purchase decisions for relatively cheap items like a coffee maker or even a fridge. Good luck finding cost of ownership info for those products. So unless cost of ownership starts factoring into people's decisions at the time of purchase, and/or externalities like waste disposal are priced in at that time, repairable goods just aren't going to be competitive.

aaronblohowiak 8y ago

Raw materials are too cheap — the externality of their dissipation has not even begun to be appreciated.

yellow_postit 8y ago

I wonder how much a carbon tax would change the economics here.

xg15 8y ago

> In a lot of cases it's simply more cost-effective to replace than to rebuild. I think a lot of this is because we can choose to not factor in a lot of additional costs that will show up in other forms. E.g., unsustainable disposal leadss to environmental problems and hazardous living conditions, while the cheap chinese labour only works with far weaker labor protections than we have here.

growlist 8y ago
If we can apply the same ingenuity to the end of life stage as to the creation stage, it actually makes sense to not bother attempting to fix - why expend costly human effort on individual patches when innumerable hours have been spent refining industrial processes to bring the cost of a replacement down? Just buy the replacement. Though of course even with the cleanest lifecycle there's still the power requirement and associated carbon, but perhaps even that can be taken care of via mitigation. I should say instinctively this still seems kind of wrong and wasteful to me, but then on the other hand when so much time has been invested in processes it kind of makes sense to take advantage of that efficiency. I should also say that this still leaves manufacturers with no excuse for taking the decision to deliberately stop making consumables, which is the kind of thing I would like to see legislation against.
- xg15 8y ago
  I don't see what one has to do with the other. Even with the most efficient production process, you will end up with landfills of toxic waste if your strategy to make your devices throwaway-only. Also note that a lot of "ingenuity" is production is just shipping parts across the world from wherever human labor is cheapest.
  - growlist 8y ago
    > If we can apply the same ingenuity to the end of life stage Did you miss above? I'm saying that IF devices can be recycled effectively at end of life, it may be more effective in economic terms to do away with the idea of making the thing repairable (beyond consumables) in life. > Also note that a lot of "ingenuity" is production is just shipping parts across the world from wherever human labor is cheapest. I think that's a little too cynical - take the car industry as an example - are you really going to argue that outsourcing to reduce labour costs has played a more significant role than technology and quality shifts? If so perhaps you should warn Germany, who still seem to be cranking out millions of cars every year, paying German wages, and turning a profit..
Ibethewalrus 8y ago
Exactly, the cost difference has been transferred to China

reacweb 8y ago

Consumer goods are cheap also because the cost of their disposal (or recycling) is subsidised by society.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Thing is it's still a £20 component being used often enough (or at electronic supplier rates possibly a 50p component), it's just been riveted or soldered to a few other things to ensure it can't be bought without £180 of pointless other things. Even with higher labour that should make a £50 (£20 + £30 labour) repair of your £500 appliance feasible. It gets pointless when it's approaching a sealed unit with a £300 repair of a £500 appliance (£200 combined unit + £100 labour).

stult 8y ago

>DIY is largely the one holdout for repairs, and it's unreasonable to think that every person can have the aptitude to fix any device that may break in their lives. It's not unreasonable at all. Every time you swap out the filter on your coffee machine, you are effectively DIY repairing it. The same idea applies to longer life components. If they are designed to be easily swapped out, the repair requires no skill at all. Now, we simply swap out the entire product. The problem is ultimately economic and behavioral,though. People simply can't allocate the necessary attentional resources to prefer repairable products below a certain price point. Meaning, you probably consider repairability when making a large purchase like a car by looking at cost of ownership. But it's simply impractical to be as thorough when making purchase decisions for relatively cheap items like a coffee maker or even a fridge. Good luck finding cost of ownership info for those products. So unless cost of ownership starts factoring into people's decisions at the time of purchase, and/or externalities like waste disposal are priced in at that time, repairable goods just aren't going to be competitive.