4 ms·

Make a cost-benefit calculation and maybe you won't feel as bad throwing it out. It will depend on financing and electricity costs which way is cheaper in the l

Make a cost-benefit calculation and maybe you won't feel as bad throwing it out. It will depend on financing and electricity costs which way is cheaper in the long run. :-)

mmt 8y ago
I think you (and the OC) will find that, with dryers, there's really not much room to gain efficiency. It's not as if modern dryers are using a heat pump instead of burning gas [1] or "burning" electricity with resistive heating. [1] and natural gas tends to be cheaper than electric heat pumps, especially nowadays
- jacobush 8y ago
  That sounds reasonable, except there is an almost 10 year old Miele dryer in my apartment, with a heat pump. Here's their top of the line current offering in the USA: https://www.mieleusa.com/domestic/tumble-dryers-1575.htm?mat=10666300&name=TWI180_WP_Eco%26Steam_WiFiConn@ct https://www.mieleusa.com/domestic/tumble-dryers-1575.htm?mat... Natural gas dryer I never even heard of, but I am not surprised - when I visited Pennsylvania I saw quite a lot of clever uses of natural gas.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > there is an almost 10 year old Miele dryer in my apartment, with a heat pump. I stand corrected. I'd be curious if it's actually any more efficient, especially if the heat it's pumping comes from gas, oil, or resistive heating (in the winter, assuming cold climate). It can appear more efficient, of course, if one only measures the dryer itself, but that wouldn't be apples-to-apples. > Here's their top of the line current offering in the USA $1800 is an eye-watering price. That'd buy me 3750 hours of 4kW [1] dryer usage, so buying it for long-term savings alone is hardly an obvious choice. > clever uses of natural gas Raising temperature by burning it seems like the least clever use of natural gas (or any combustible). [1] I figure the least efficient resistive heating dryer is 5kW and that Miele is 1kW.
    - jacobush 8y ago
      No, all fair points. For my case, I figure it has in recent years started to give a return. I had to repair it (myself) with parts for $40 once. It has certainly been running for much more than 4000 hours. Looking at the greater picture, the power mix here is about 50% nuclear and hydro, the rest from burning garbage in combined heat (heats the whole town) and power. You can tell it's not using as much power as our previous dryer, the bathroom would get sauna hot if you closed the bathroom door and also the clothes would take longer to dry - with the Miele there isn't much difference with the door open or closed either in drying time or room temperature. It's also less wear and tear on the clothes. The clothes come out consistently "dry" instead of between "humid" and "extra crisp" with the old dryer. Stepping away even further from the picture, I actually prefer hanging to dry (clothes don't wear out as fast and I actually enjoy the slight stiffness of textiles hung to dry, a childhood thing I guess) but my (soon to be ex-, thank God) wife swears by the dryer, so... a dryer it was. And I have to admit, it's damn useful at times.
    - lorenzhs 8y ago
      You can buy a heat pump drier for less than $500 in Germany, with the premium brands' models around $700. Their energy consumption is about half that of a condensation drier. At German electricity prices (ca 25ct/kWh), it's not hard to see why heat pump driers have gained significant market share. And for the record, the heat pump is used to dehumidify the processing air. The air is still heated using electricity. It just doesn't waste as much heat.
      - mmt 8y ago
        > Their energy consumption is about half that of a condensation drier. Again, this is not necessarily a fair comparison, if what's being pumped actually costs something that can't be measured at the dryer's plug. $500 would likely be worth it, even at $.12/kWh, but the market may not think so if they're not available for that price in places with cheap electricity (and/or cheap enough natural gas, which can be much cheaper, ranging between $.04/kWh and $.06/kWh, equivalent, on my last bill). > the heat pump is used to dehumidify the processing air. This seems a bit strange to me, but it makes sense, especially if there's recirculation going on. > The air is still heated using electricity. It just doesn't waste as much heat. This is pretty clear from the efficiency only being 2:1, which is much worse than what I'd expect from a heat pump being used for heating.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Electricity is far more expensive than gas. I would even factor the cost of not having a gas line when choosing to purchase a property. Commercial dryers, such as in hotels, are also gas. Actually, the only time I’ve seen electric dryers are in apartment buildings too old to have been hooked up with gas lines.
    - jacobush 8y ago
      Where I live, gas is not even a thing, except in restaurants where it comes in bottles by truck. And the town's buses are running on biogas but are on schedule to be replaced with electric buses.
    - mmt 8y ago
      > Electricity is far more expensive than gas. That's usually only if the gas is natural gas, and that's not available. Even then, "far more" can be misleading. My experience in California is that it's on the order of 4x cheaper than using resistive heating in a residence (i.e. buying naively from the utility at retail rates). My latest PG&E bill shows "procurement" costs (which I assume are the wholesale energy-only part of the bill [1]) of $.009-$.01/kWh [2], and, IIUC, wholesale electricity is about 4x that. This is to say that an efficient enough electric heat pump (which I believe is plausible for whole-house heating, not high-temperature use cases like a dryer) could at least get close to gas in operating cost. [1] only about 1/7th of the retail total, something which would likely surprise most consumers. This seems true for electricity, too, where, IIRC, the energy costs $.04/kWh, but PG&E charges upward of $.24/kWh at the highest residential "tier". [2] converted from $/therm using 29.300111111111 kWh/therm

Make a cost-benefit calculation and maybe you won't feel as bad throwing it out. It will depend on financing and electricity costs which way is cheaper in the long run. :-)

mmt 8y ago

I think you (and the OC) will find that, with dryers, there's really not much room to gain efficiency. It's not as if modern dryers are using a heat pump instead of burning gas [1] or "burning" electricity with resistive heating. [1] and natural gas tends to be cheaper than electric heat pumps, especially nowadays

jacobush 8y ago
That sounds reasonable, except there is an almost 10 year old Miele dryer in my apartment, with a heat pump. Here's their top of the line current offering in the USA: https://www.mieleusa.com/domestic/tumble-dryers-1575.htm?mat=10666300&name=TWI180_WP_Eco%26Steam_WiFiConn@ct https://www.mieleusa.com/domestic/tumble-dryers-1575.htm?mat... Natural gas dryer I never even heard of, but I am not surprised - when I visited Pennsylvania I saw quite a lot of clever uses of natural gas.
- mmt 8y ago
  > there is an almost 10 year old Miele dryer in my apartment, with a heat pump. I stand corrected. I'd be curious if it's actually any more efficient, especially if the heat it's pumping comes from gas, oil, or resistive heating (in the winter, assuming cold climate). It can appear more efficient, of course, if one only measures the dryer itself, but that wouldn't be apples-to-apples. > Here's their top of the line current offering in the USA $1800 is an eye-watering price. That'd buy me 3750 hours of 4kW [1] dryer usage, so buying it for long-term savings alone is hardly an obvious choice. > clever uses of natural gas Raising temperature by burning it seems like the least clever use of natural gas (or any combustible). [1] I figure the least efficient resistive heating dryer is 5kW and that Miele is 1kW.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    No, all fair points. For my case, I figure it has in recent years started to give a return. I had to repair it (myself) with parts for $40 once. It has certainly been running for much more than 4000 hours. Looking at the greater picture, the power mix here is about 50% nuclear and hydro, the rest from burning garbage in combined heat (heats the whole town) and power. You can tell it's not using as much power as our previous dryer, the bathroom would get sauna hot if you closed the bathroom door and also the clothes would take longer to dry - with the Miele there isn't much difference with the door open or closed either in drying time or room temperature. It's also less wear and tear on the clothes. The clothes come out consistently "dry" instead of between "humid" and "extra crisp" with the old dryer. Stepping away even further from the picture, I actually prefer hanging to dry (clothes don't wear out as fast and I actually enjoy the slight stiffness of textiles hung to dry, a childhood thing I guess) but my (soon to be ex-, thank God) wife swears by the dryer, so... a dryer it was. And I have to admit, it's damn useful at times.
  - lorenzhs 8y ago
    You can buy a heat pump drier for less than $500 in Germany, with the premium brands' models around $700. Their energy consumption is about half that of a condensation drier. At German electricity prices (ca 25ct/kWh), it's not hard to see why heat pump driers have gained significant market share. And for the record, the heat pump is used to dehumidify the processing air. The air is still heated using electricity. It just doesn't waste as much heat.
    - mmt 8y ago
      > Their energy consumption is about half that of a condensation drier. Again, this is not necessarily a fair comparison, if what's being pumped actually costs something that can't be measured at the dryer's plug. $500 would likely be worth it, even at $.12/kWh, but the market may not think so if they're not available for that price in places with cheap electricity (and/or cheap enough natural gas, which can be much cheaper, ranging between $.04/kWh and $.06/kWh, equivalent, on my last bill). > the heat pump is used to dehumidify the processing air. This seems a bit strange to me, but it makes sense, especially if there's recirculation going on. > The air is still heated using electricity. It just doesn't waste as much heat. This is pretty clear from the efficiency only being 2:1, which is much worse than what I'd expect from a heat pump being used for heating.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Electricity is far more expensive than gas. I would even factor the cost of not having a gas line when choosing to purchase a property. Commercial dryers, such as in hotels, are also gas. Actually, the only time I’ve seen electric dryers are in apartment buildings too old to have been hooked up with gas lines.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    Where I live, gas is not even a thing, except in restaurants where it comes in bottles by truck. And the town's buses are running on biogas but are on schedule to be replaced with electric buses.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > Electricity is far more expensive than gas. That's usually only if the gas is natural gas, and that's not available. Even then, "far more" can be misleading. My experience in California is that it's on the order of 4x cheaper than using resistive heating in a residence (i.e. buying naively from the utility at retail rates). My latest PG&E bill shows "procurement" costs (which I assume are the wholesale energy-only part of the bill [1]) of $.009-$.01/kWh [2], and, IIUC, wholesale electricity is about 4x that. This is to say that an efficient enough electric heat pump (which I believe is plausible for whole-house heating, not high-temperature use cases like a dryer) could at least get close to gas in operating cost. [1] only about 1/7th of the retail total, something which would likely surprise most consumers. This seems true for electricity, too, where, IIRC, the energy costs $.04/kWh, but PG&E charges upward of $.24/kWh at the highest residential "tier". [2] converted from $/therm using 29.300111111111 kWh/therm