6 ms·

Walking Through the Official Document on China' Social Credit System

98 points by paraditedc 8y ago

burlesona 8y ago
This is interesting, but kind of odd that the mandarin quotes weren't translated in an otherwise English article.
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Ah, I see. I overlooked the fact that it would be odd for people who can't read them. Anyway, the reason I didn't translate them is partly because there's a lot of nuances in the language and any attempt to translate them would inherently require some level of interpretation and potentially cause misunderstanding. Also at the time, I was too tired from reading and summarizing the document already.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - adamnemecek 8y ago
    > Anyway, the reason I didn't translate them is partly because there's a lot of nuances in the language and any attempt to translate them would inherently require some level of interpretation and potentially cause misunderstanding. Welcome to translation?
    - dang 8y ago
      Would you please stop being a jerk on HN? We've had to ask you way too many times. I've held off banning you because you've posted good stories, but at some point it's not going to be worth it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- yorwba 8y ago
  FWIW, most of the quotes are directly next to their summary in the English article. I didn't check all of them (because I'm slow at reading Chinese, those quotes are officialese and there's no lang="zh-cn" attribute so some of the characters have odd shapes) but I think you don't miss much if you can't read them.
sitepodmatt 8y ago
Does this stop them shitting, pissing and spitting anywhere they please when travelling abroad? Or more generally have some decency to care beyond themselves and immediate family? I appreciate there is no mallice in it but I'd hope social credit would increase awareness. I avoid low cost airlines nowadays so I don't run the risk of sitting next to a mainlander (or as HKG natives call them a locust)
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Not really. But there are some other measures to address those issues. Would you be interested if I write a post on the existing and proposed measures to tackle this issue and analyze their effectiveness?
- sctb 8y ago
  Since you keep breaking the guidelines with uncivil comments after we've asked you to stop, we've banned the account.
kstenerud 8y ago
This article smells. Like a bad code smell. Especially since we have the Chinese government freely admitting [1] that they will restrict travel to regular citizens for "spreading false information about terrorism, causing problems on flights, using expired tickets, smoking on trains, failing to pay social insurance or failing to pay fines", according to the National Development and Reform Commission’s website. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-bar-people-with-bad-social-credit-from-planes-trains-idUSKCN1GS10S https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-bar...
- wholien 8y ago
  The issue I have with the Reuters article is that it doesn't link to the statement on the website. It would be great if western media, when talking about this, actually provide proof to the official documents - especially if they're online. Question: Don't western countries also restrict your ability to travel during court proceedings? The court says you're a flight risk so they take away your passport or don't give you bail, right? (At least in the USA). Most of these things they listed are felonies in China, so I can see why they wouldn't want you to leave before appearing in court and paying your fines. I remember reading some other analysis on the Chinese Social Credit System proposals, and it seemed to really just restrict people's travel if you're in the middle of court proceedings (maybe from smoking on trains, using expired tickets, spreading false information about terrorism - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1038 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1038 says this is punishable in USA for up to 5 years...). EDIT: source article is http://www.chinatax.gov.cn/n810341/n810755/c3359637/content.html http://www.chinatax.gov.cn/n810341/n810755/c3359637/content.... As noted in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18250502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18250502, Reuters is wrong to include trains in their reporting. In context, this is just restricting plane travel. And they list a bunch of plane / airport - related infractions plus social infractions (such as basically white collar crime, which after 2008 seems like something USA needs to do too). In context, basically restricting your ability to travel with planes if you do any of these airplane/airport related things: 1) spread false rumors about terrorism as related to air travel, 2) using others people's or using fake ID or fake boarding passes, 3) and a bunch of listings of committing crimes in airplanes and airports (fighting, stopping people from performing their jobs, stealing, smoking where you can't etc...) That sounds reasonable to me. The article also says to restrict air travel for non-airplane/airport things such as (mostly white collar crimes as I mentioned above): 1) if you're accused in a large tax avoidance / tax related court case, 2) illegally manipulating accounting or faking or lying about finances and not paying back debts (doesn't specifically say personal or corporate, but I assume it's the latter), 3) didnt pay the social insurance for employees AND refusal to remedy the situation ( I assume the managers/directors would be the one punished here), 4) securities and futures deemed illegal and fined and fines haven't been paid, or basically a public company not doing what it says it publicly said it would do, 5) people deemed by the courts to have lost social credit (this one seems like can be manipulated, as courts could deem you to have lost social credit from maybe a train-specific legislation, and thus restricting your plane travel too), and 6) says relevant parties that identify more categories of actions of depleting trust should be added and amended. If anyone is interested I might do a more specific write up of this. I kind of just translated as I read so might have some mistakes, in which case please let me know and I will amend
mediocrejoker 8y ago
It would be great if somebody could translate this article, since the commentary doesn’t make a lot of sense if you can’t read the source material.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kiliantics 8y ago
Here's a good thread I read recently dispelling a lot if the myths about the system: https://www.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1043643948185468928 https://www.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1043643948185468928 It seems a lot of the news is driven by a strong anti-China, even McCarthyist bias.
dlwdlw 8y ago
Here’s a story of why China is a rather paradoxical state. It’s not pure authoritarianism. Many people who can’t return loans have their name and id number shown on large digital billboards. The goal is to shame them into returning money. Sounds dystopian right? BUT the reason this is done is because these people can squat in their houses (which may bot belong to them) and the police and law can’t do anything. The social backlash of kicking someone out of their sole living space would be huge. Some lenders do things like send thugs to harrass them or get a court order to freeze their bank accounts. Yet the “core” of the issues is that “the law is the law” is NOT followed. It has flexibility rooted in human understanding. Often lenders have to meet halfway per a judge’s order b/c otherwise the lendee wouldn’t be able to make a living.
- tdb7893 8y ago
  Yeah, it's a good reminder that our views on all other countries (and also groups within our own countries) always lacks a lot of nuance.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- Mizza 8y ago
  I've spent a little bit of time and there and found that this is extremely true, but also equally true of America as well. For instance, although China is absolutely totalitarian when it comes to political freedom, freedom of speech, and even freedom of thought (in fact, far more authoritarian than neoliberals will ever admit), you do feel a lot more "free" at the _street level_. There are basically no traffic laws, you can drink and smoke wherever you want, you can set up a shop on the side of a sidewalk, you can make and sell bootlegs of anything you want - you can even piss and shit in the middle of the street without so much as a second thought about it (this is disgustingly common there.) On the flip side, in America I can (ostensibly) say whatever you want politically, but I can't legally drink a beer on the sidewalk. I can't open a certain type of shop in a certain area. I can't sell products which use such-and-such technology. I can't even cross the street at certain times and places. Land of the free!
c789a123 8y ago
A government has no credit itself build up a credit system for its subjects. Before CCP grabs power in 1949, they promised a western democracy system. 30 years ago until 1 or two years ago they push for a one child policy and promised that the government will take care of old people. Both promises and many others not listed here they now just pretend never happens. This whole social credit system shit is just try to have a more strong control to the slaves who can not vote and take their organs etc easily when necessary.
- thstart 8y ago
  Mao studied in Yale, no?
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
most posts on the site aim to "debunk" the myth of Chinese products being a security risk and that Westerners just overreacting
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Hey, I wrote all 5 articles and I think only the 5th one on Huawei fits your description? Appreciate if you can provide some feedback on how to be less biased, if that's what you mean.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    If you write about topics the mainstream media have reported on, it's easy to end up looking like an apologist. The media tend to focus on negative stories because negativity drives attention. Unless you deliberately put your stories through a similar filter (why I'm not suggesting you should do), they'll be more positive than the audience has come to expect. You could somewhat avoid that by writing about lesser-known topics. Some suggestions: image-retouching apps like B612/Faceu (although I recall some outrage about their skin-whitening effect making it to Twitter) and Chinese-only games (I know there are some big ones, but I haven't even been interested enough so far to find out whether "吃鸡" means to lose or to win).
Paperweight 8y ago
In the west, the classic fictional story of dystopia seems to be the complete subjugation of the individual to the collective. E.g. you become a cell enslaved to a body of "society" - a sort of emergent A.I. that's not necessarily under anyone's control.
zwaps 8y ago
How much social credit do i lose by visiting a mosque or church?
kodablah 8y ago
> For rewards, it mentions giving awards and publicity to model individuals and companies. Various sectors will have “green lanes” given to “those with integrity and credibility”, for priority and simplified processes. Note that this section does not mention scores, it merely says “诚实守信者”, meaning people with integrity and credibility. Scary. I will say with all of the "vague context", "it appears", "I don't know", etc that this post is as speculative as the Western ones. I appreciate the impartial tone of the article. To the author, would you care to share your opinions on the system personally, i.e. whether it's a good thing? Also, do you have any anecdotal insight on how common citizens view it behind closed doors?
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Hey. Sorry for the late reply. I'd be sure post new articles on this as follow-up once I have my personal experience with the system with my next trip to China.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    Thanks. I was hoping for your opinions on the ideas rather than the implementation. Judgement based on experience/anecdote has less value due to the sheer size of the implementation.
    - paraditedc 8y ago
      Honestly speaking, I practice a lot of doubethink. So my opinions are quite worthless, and I'd rather just talk about facts and stats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink
cycop 8y ago
The Chinese government commenters are strong in this one.
- dang 8y ago
  This comment breaks the HN guidelines. If you think you see evidence of abuse, you can email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look into it. But the toxic trope of insinuating astroturfing in comments you disagree with is offside here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jbottoms 8y ago
What is the meaning of "circulation" in the section Business Credibility?
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Hey, the exact translation for the word does seem a bit odd, but I searched online and there doesn't seem to be good equivalent term in English, the translations are generally either circulation, market or currency. So I will translate the explanation I got from the Chinese wiki[1]: The field where the medium of exchange of goods is currency [1] https://baike.baidu.com/item/流通领域 https://baike.baidu.com/item/流通领域
  - jbottoms 8y ago
    Then the English would be "currency exchange".
    - paraditedc 8y ago
      According to my experience with the phrase "currency exchange", it means exchanging currencies, not exchanging goods using one particular currency as the medium of exchange. So it would be a wrong translation.

98 points by paraditedc 8y ago

burlesona 8y ago

This is interesting, but kind of odd that the mandarin quotes weren't translated in an otherwise English article.

paraditedc 8y ago
Ah, I see. I overlooked the fact that it would be odd for people who can't read them. Anyway, the reason I didn't translate them is partly because there's a lot of nuances in the language and any attempt to translate them would inherently require some level of interpretation and potentially cause misunderstanding. Also at the time, I was too tired from reading and summarizing the document already.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- adamnemecek 8y ago
  > Anyway, the reason I didn't translate them is partly because there's a lot of nuances in the language and any attempt to translate them would inherently require some level of interpretation and potentially cause misunderstanding. Welcome to translation?
  - dang 8y ago
    Would you please stop being a jerk on HN? We've had to ask you way too many times. I've held off banning you because you've posted good stories, but at some point it's not going to be worth it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
yorwba 8y ago
FWIW, most of the quotes are directly next to their summary in the English article. I didn't check all of them (because I'm slow at reading Chinese, those quotes are officialese and there's no lang="zh-cn" attribute so some of the characters have odd shapes) but I think you don't miss much if you can't read them.

sitepodmatt 8y ago

Does this stop them shitting, pissing and spitting anywhere they please when travelling abroad? Or more generally have some decency to care beyond themselves and immediate family? I appreciate there is no mallice in it but I'd hope social credit would increase awareness. I avoid low cost airlines nowadays so I don't run the risk of sitting next to a mainlander (or as HKG natives call them a locust)

paraditedc 8y ago
Not really. But there are some other measures to address those issues. Would you be interested if I write a post on the existing and proposed measures to tackle this issue and analyze their effectiveness?
sctb 8y ago
Since you keep breaking the guidelines with uncivil comments after we've asked you to stop, we've banned the account.

kstenerud 8y ago

This article smells. Like a bad code smell. Especially since we have the Chinese government freely admitting [1] that they will restrict travel to regular citizens for "spreading false information about terrorism, causing problems on flights, using expired tickets, smoking on trains, failing to pay social insurance or failing to pay fines", according to the National Development and Reform Commission’s website. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-bar-people-with-bad-social-credit-from-planes-trains-idUSKCN1GS10S https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-bar...

wholien 8y ago
The issue I have with the Reuters article is that it doesn't link to the statement on the website. It would be great if western media, when talking about this, actually provide proof to the official documents - especially if they're online. Question: Don't western countries also restrict your ability to travel during court proceedings? The court says you're a flight risk so they take away your passport or don't give you bail, right? (At least in the USA). Most of these things they listed are felonies in China, so I can see why they wouldn't want you to leave before appearing in court and paying your fines. I remember reading some other analysis on the Chinese Social Credit System proposals, and it seemed to really just restrict people's travel if you're in the middle of court proceedings (maybe from smoking on trains, using expired tickets, spreading false information about terrorism - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1038 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1038 says this is punishable in USA for up to 5 years...). EDIT: source article is http://www.chinatax.gov.cn/n810341/n810755/c3359637/content.html http://www.chinatax.gov.cn/n810341/n810755/c3359637/content.... As noted in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18250502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18250502, Reuters is wrong to include trains in their reporting. In context, this is just restricting plane travel. And they list a bunch of plane / airport - related infractions plus social infractions (such as basically white collar crime, which after 2008 seems like something USA needs to do too). In context, basically restricting your ability to travel with planes if you do any of these airplane/airport related things: 1) spread false rumors about terrorism as related to air travel, 2) using others people's or using fake ID or fake boarding passes, 3) and a bunch of listings of committing crimes in airplanes and airports (fighting, stopping people from performing their jobs, stealing, smoking where you can't etc...) That sounds reasonable to me. The article also says to restrict air travel for non-airplane/airport things such as (mostly white collar crimes as I mentioned above): 1) if you're accused in a large tax avoidance / tax related court case, 2) illegally manipulating accounting or faking or lying about finances and not paying back debts (doesn't specifically say personal or corporate, but I assume it's the latter), 3) didnt pay the social insurance for employees AND refusal to remedy the situation ( I assume the managers/directors would be the one punished here), 4) securities and futures deemed illegal and fined and fines haven't been paid, or basically a public company not doing what it says it publicly said it would do, 5) people deemed by the courts to have lost social credit (this one seems like can be manipulated, as courts could deem you to have lost social credit from maybe a train-specific legislation, and thus restricting your plane travel too), and 6) says relevant parties that identify more categories of actions of depleting trust should be added and amended. If anyone is interested I might do a more specific write up of this. I kind of just translated as I read so might have some mistakes, in which case please let me know and I will amend

mediocrejoker 8y ago

It would be great if somebody could translate this article, since the commentary doesn’t make a lot of sense if you can’t read the source material.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

kiliantics 8y ago

Here's a good thread I read recently dispelling a lot if the myths about the system: https://www.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1043643948185468928 https://www.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1043643948185468928 It seems a lot of the news is driven by a strong anti-China, even McCarthyist bias.

dlwdlw 8y ago

Here’s a story of why China is a rather paradoxical state. It’s not pure authoritarianism. Many people who can’t return loans have their name and id number shown on large digital billboards. The goal is to shame them into returning money. Sounds dystopian right? BUT the reason this is done is because these people can squat in their houses (which may bot belong to them) and the police and law can’t do anything. The social backlash of kicking someone out of their sole living space would be huge. Some lenders do things like send thugs to harrass them or get a court order to freeze their bank accounts. Yet the “core” of the issues is that “the law is the law” is NOT followed. It has flexibility rooted in human understanding. Often lenders have to meet halfway per a judge’s order b/c otherwise the lendee wouldn’t be able to make a living.

tdb7893 8y ago
Yeah, it's a good reminder that our views on all other countries (and also groups within our own countries) always lacks a lot of nuance.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Mizza 8y ago
I've spent a little bit of time and there and found that this is extremely true, but also equally true of America as well. For instance, although China is absolutely totalitarian when it comes to political freedom, freedom of speech, and even freedom of thought (in fact, far more authoritarian than neoliberals will ever admit), you do feel a lot more "free" at the _street level_. There are basically no traffic laws, you can drink and smoke wherever you want, you can set up a shop on the side of a sidewalk, you can make and sell bootlegs of anything you want - you can even piss and shit in the middle of the street without so much as a second thought about it (this is disgustingly common there.) On the flip side, in America I can (ostensibly) say whatever you want politically, but I can't legally drink a beer on the sidewalk. I can't open a certain type of shop in a certain area. I can't sell products which use such-and-such technology. I can't even cross the street at certain times and places. Land of the free!

c789a123 8y ago

A government has no credit itself build up a credit system for its subjects. Before CCP grabs power in 1949, they promised a western democracy system. 30 years ago until 1 or two years ago they push for a one child policy and promised that the government will take care of old people. Both promises and many others not listed here they now just pretend never happens. This whole social credit system shit is just try to have a more strong control to the slaves who can not vote and take their organs etc easily when necessary.

thstart 8y ago
Mao studied in Yale, no?

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

most posts on the site aim to "debunk" the myth of Chinese products being a security risk and that Westerners just overreacting

paraditedc 8y ago
Hey, I wrote all 5 articles and I think only the 5th one on Huawei fits your description? Appreciate if you can provide some feedback on how to be less biased, if that's what you mean.
- yorwba 8y ago
  If you write about topics the mainstream media have reported on, it's easy to end up looking like an apologist. The media tend to focus on negative stories because negativity drives attention. Unless you deliberately put your stories through a similar filter (why I'm not suggesting you should do), they'll be more positive than the audience has come to expect. You could somewhat avoid that by writing about lesser-known topics. Some suggestions: image-retouching apps like B612/Faceu (although I recall some outrage about their skin-whitening effect making it to Twitter) and Chinese-only games (I know there are some big ones, but I haven't even been interested enough so far to find out whether "吃鸡" means to lose or to win).

Paperweight 8y ago

In the west, the classic fictional story of dystopia seems to be the complete subjugation of the individual to the collective. E.g. you become a cell enslaved to a body of "society" - a sort of emergent A.I. that's not necessarily under anyone's control.

zwaps 8y ago

How much social credit do i lose by visiting a mosque or church?

kodablah 8y ago

> For rewards, it mentions giving awards and publicity to model individuals and companies. Various sectors will have “green lanes” given to “those with integrity and credibility”, for priority and simplified processes. Note that this section does not mention scores, it merely says “诚实守信者”, meaning people with integrity and credibility. Scary. I will say with all of the "vague context", "it appears", "I don't know", etc that this post is as speculative as the Western ones. I appreciate the impartial tone of the article. To the author, would you care to share your opinions on the system personally, i.e. whether it's a good thing? Also, do you have any anecdotal insight on how common citizens view it behind closed doors?

paraditedc 8y ago
Hey. Sorry for the late reply. I'd be sure post new articles on this as follow-up once I have my personal experience with the system with my next trip to China.
- kodablah 8y ago
  Thanks. I was hoping for your opinions on the ideas rather than the implementation. Judgement based on experience/anecdote has less value due to the sheer size of the implementation.
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    Honestly speaking, I practice a lot of doubethink. So my opinions are quite worthless, and I'd rather just talk about facts and stats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

cycop 8y ago

The Chinese government commenters are strong in this one.

dang 8y ago
This comment breaks the HN guidelines. If you think you see evidence of abuse, you can email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look into it. But the toxic trope of insinuating astroturfing in comments you disagree with is offside here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jbottoms 8y ago

What is the meaning of "circulation" in the section Business Credibility?

paraditedc 8y ago
Hey, the exact translation for the word does seem a bit odd, but I searched online and there doesn't seem to be good equivalent term in English, the translations are generally either circulation, market or currency. So I will translate the explanation I got from the Chinese wiki[1]: The field where the medium of exchange of goods is currency [1] https://baike.baidu.com/item/流通领域 https://baike.baidu.com/item/流通领域
- jbottoms 8y ago
  Then the English would be "currency exchange".
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    According to my experience with the phrase "currency exchange", it means exchanging currencies, not exchanging goods using one particular currency as the medium of exchange. So it would be a wrong translation.