5 ms·

It's really important that you did this, and even more important that you document that you did it. I know it probably seems obvious, but an agreement is more

It's really important that you did this, and even more important that you document that you did it. I know it probably seems obvious, but an agreement is more than a piece of paper that someone has signed. Written contracts _help_ to determine intention, but they can be superseded by oral contracts if the intention of the contract changes. I once sat as a juror on a pretty nasty trial involving a contract where both parties disputed over the signature. We had to sit through days of testimony from professional handwriting forensics specialists over who they thought had signed a particular agreement. Was the signature valid, or was it forged? In the end, it didn't matter. The two parties acted in such a way to form a different oral contract, and it was their actions which lead to the jury determining the outcome of the trial. The contract was a piece of the puzzle, but it's not the _only_ piece of the puzzle. One party acted in a way as to misrepresent what was in the written contract, and that was used to determine fault.

lowercased 8y ago
Thanks. I have an attorney friend who gave similar input. I had someone not pay me for work 10 years ago. I filed a lawsuit, and... got back 20 page document about all the reasons they said they didn't owe me. One was we didn't have a written contract. Well, I'd signed their contract, and sent it back, but never got a countersigned copy, and they're claiming they never agreed to it. Another was 'laches' - I waited too long. Work was done a bit in April, then I was away for a week, then wrapped up basically by end of May - maybe 6-7 weeks in total. No money in June, lies in July ("it's coming, I sent it, etc") and then I filed suit in August. Another was I'd waived my right to payment because in an IM I told the guy I was working for that I could wait a bit until he got paid. They took that as I was waiving my right to ever be paid. I have to go find all my paperwork and screenshots now because - 10 years later - my court date is set for Dec. I had dozens (hundreds?) of emails and IM screenshots acknowledging receipt of invoice, promising payment, saying work was done, final client approved, etc. Email threads about all the work over several weeks. At no point during any of that working project was there any "whoah, what's the invoice for? who are you? why are you working on this project?" The totality of the working relationship was that I was working on something with the understanding that they would pay, and there are multiple assurances that they would, in fact, pay. Yes, lack of 'written contract' was one piece, but the totality of the picture will hopefully weigh in my favor (but I gotta find all my stuff and get to court now - it's in another state!). FWIW, first invoice was submitted, and the 'contract' (which they didn't countersign) stated invoices would be paid within 3 weeks. Not unreasonable, and faster than some other places I've worked for. Problem was, the rest of the project was completed in the next 3 weeks. BIG lessons learned on this one.
- 55555 8y ago
  Wait, why is your court date ten YEARS after the offense? Did you file suit 10 years ago and not get a court date until just now?
  - lowercased 8y ago
    Filed august 2008. This case isn't in michigan, but an attorney friend of mine in michigan said "if this case was in michigan, you'd be at least 5 years waiting". This is in NYC - even longer. The company filed against is no longer in business, so I'm not even sure what to do at this point. It was a small individual LLC, may not be anything to do, but he was so shitty about it - couldn't pay me, but screwed over multiple other contractors I found out about around the same time, I drove up to NYC and filed a lawsuit. I didn't think it would take an entire 10 years to get a court date.
    - badpun 8y ago
      10 years to get a court date in the US? Is this common?
      - lowercased 8y ago
        again, per my comment re: michigan attorney, he'd indicated it might be a 4-5 year wait, as things were backed up there. NYC seemed to be 10 years. but i don't know how common it is. I've had people say "you should have gone to small claims court!" Except, the claim exceeded small claims limit ($5k). Perhaps I could have rounded it down and tried for small claims, which supposedly is somewhat faster, but how do you know ahead of time this will take 10 years to even appear in court?
        notatcomputer68 8y ago
        That's so dysfunctional I bet it pushes a lot of people to ask the mob for help with collecting.
      - 8y ago
winningcontinue 8y ago
similar jury trial for a commercial case I stood on. But this was outright fraud, in that one business partner accused the others of sending them an enitrely different document than what was read and agreed upon. The plantiff didn't read the contract for many years and didn't notice it until he found out he was missing out on a lot of profits. So yea, for things like your job contract it's worth putting the time in to know what's going on and ask questions.

lowercased 8y ago

Thanks. I have an attorney friend who gave similar input. I had someone not pay me for work 10 years ago. I filed a lawsuit, and... got back 20 page document about all the reasons they said they didn't owe me. One was we didn't have a written contract. Well, I'd signed their contract, and sent it back, but never got a countersigned copy, and they're claiming they never agreed to it. Another was 'laches' - I waited too long. Work was done a bit in April, then I was away for a week, then wrapped up basically by end of May - maybe 6-7 weeks in total. No money in June, lies in July ("it's coming, I sent it, etc") and then I filed suit in August. Another was I'd waived my right to payment because in an IM I told the guy I was working for that I could wait a bit until he got paid. They took that as I was waiving my right to ever be paid. I have to go find all my paperwork and screenshots now because - 10 years later - my court date is set for Dec. I had dozens (hundreds?) of emails and IM screenshots acknowledging receipt of invoice, promising payment, saying work was done, final client approved, etc. Email threads about all the work over several weeks. At no point during any of that working project was there any "whoah, what's the invoice for? who are you? why are you working on this project?" The totality of the working relationship was that I was working on something with the understanding that they would pay, and there are multiple assurances that they would, in fact, pay. Yes, lack of 'written contract' was one piece, but the totality of the picture will hopefully weigh in my favor (but I gotta find all my stuff and get to court now - it's in another state!). FWIW, first invoice was submitted, and the 'contract' (which they didn't countersign) stated invoices would be paid within 3 weeks. Not unreasonable, and faster than some other places I've worked for. Problem was, the rest of the project was completed in the next 3 weeks. BIG lessons learned on this one.

55555 8y ago
Wait, why is your court date ten YEARS after the offense? Did you file suit 10 years ago and not get a court date until just now?
- lowercased 8y ago
  Filed august 2008. This case isn't in michigan, but an attorney friend of mine in michigan said "if this case was in michigan, you'd be at least 5 years waiting". This is in NYC - even longer. The company filed against is no longer in business, so I'm not even sure what to do at this point. It was a small individual LLC, may not be anything to do, but he was so shitty about it - couldn't pay me, but screwed over multiple other contractors I found out about around the same time, I drove up to NYC and filed a lawsuit. I didn't think it would take an entire 10 years to get a court date.
  - badpun 8y ago
    10 years to get a court date in the US? Is this common?
    - lowercased 8y ago
      again, per my comment re: michigan attorney, he'd indicated it might be a 4-5 year wait, as things were backed up there. NYC seemed to be 10 years. but i don't know how common it is. I've had people say "you should have gone to small claims court!" Except, the claim exceeded small claims limit ($5k). Perhaps I could have rounded it down and tried for small claims, which supposedly is somewhat faster, but how do you know ahead of time this will take 10 years to even appear in court?
      - notatcomputer68 8y ago
        That's so dysfunctional I bet it pushes a lot of people to ask the mob for help with collecting.
    - 8y ago

winningcontinue 8y ago

similar jury trial for a commercial case I stood on. But this was outright fraud, in that one business partner accused the others of sending them an enitrely different document than what was read and agreed upon. The plantiff didn't read the contract for many years and didn't notice it until he found out he was missing out on a lot of profits. So yea, for things like your job contract it's worth putting the time in to know what's going on and ask questions.