4 ms·

Perhaps the U.S. should go ahead and formalize the feudal system we seem to be implementing piecemeal.

by skh 8y ago

HarryHirsch 8y ago
In a feudal system the money flows up and the protection flows down - look at Putin and his oligarchs. In the US it's only the money that flows upwards.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  What makes you think the feudal system wouldn't have preferred to have only money flow up and nothing flow down? The only reason feudal lords provided protection was because if they didn't, there would be no money flowing up to them.
  - seer 8y ago
    While that did happen from time to time, it was not especially stable, and I think there is a better name for it - (military) ocupation
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    In the Middle Ages the serfs always had the opportunity to run away, they could decamp to a city or a competing lord. Besides, the Church and later the rising merchant class provided a counterweight to the excesses of rural gentry. They may have preferred absolute power, but they couldn't have it. If you are an oligarch in Russia it seems you still have the opportunity to run off to London or Vancouver, so history repeats itself even now.
    - Anthony-G 8y ago
      Serfs were bound to the land and not much better off than slaves. Another lord would not have welcomed a runaway serf and escaping to a city would have been an extremely risky venture as serfs had little – if any – money (subsistence farming was the order of the day, when not working for the lord on his lands). Giving up their family and wider social support network to become an anonymous beggar in a city would not have been a good move. Even if one had a skill, the city guilds controlled the ability to use skills for commercial purposes. It’s possible that a few people (e.g., gifted musicians) may have been able to escape the bonds of serfdom. I also don’t know how easy it was for a serf to join a monastery or a convent – but otherwise, I imagine the proportion of serfs who could run away to the city is likely to have been equivalent to the proportion of modern-day Mancunian kids who escape the council estate by playing for Manchester United.
      - HarryHirsch 8y ago
        Wikipedia would have you believe the contrary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_peasants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_peasants "Stadtluft macht frei" and the related "year and a day" are still German proverbs. Eric Hansen made similar assertions here (popular history, but sounds plausible): https://www.amazon.com/-/dp/3596173248/ https://www.amazon.com/-/dp/3596173248/
        Anthony-G 8y ago
        I knew the experience of European serfs varied a lot in terms of freedoms and obligations to their lord but everything I’d read until now about life in feudal Europe lead me to understand there was very little mobility – and particularly so for the lower classes. That Wikipedia article provides an interesting counterpoint so thanks for that. I’d also only come across “a year and a day” as the pre-marriage trial period that a couple would spend together in the tradition of hand-fasting – and the old common law standard regarding attribution of cause of death. I was not aware that it also served as the length of time that escaped serfs would be legally freed if they managed to survive that long.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > In a feudal system the money flows up Well, value; in the classical feudal system the lowest classes would rarely have much money to flow anywhere, and their obligations were mostly in-kind in labor and produce, not monetary.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Perhaps the U.S. should go ahead and formalize the feudal system we seem to be implementing piecemeal.

by skh 8y ago

Perhaps the U.S. should go ahead and formalize the feudal system we seem to be implementing piecemeal.

In a feudal system the money flows up and the protection flows down - look at Putin and his oligarchs. In the US it's only the money that flows upwards.

craftyguy 8y ago
What makes you think the feudal system wouldn't have preferred to have only money flow up and nothing flow down? The only reason feudal lords provided protection was because if they didn't, there would be no money flowing up to them.
- seer 8y ago
  While that did happen from time to time, it was not especially stable, and I think there is a better name for it - (military) ocupation
- HarryHirsch 8y ago
  In the Middle Ages the serfs always had the opportunity to run away, they could decamp to a city or a competing lord. Besides, the Church and later the rising merchant class provided a counterweight to the excesses of rural gentry. They may have preferred absolute power, but they couldn't have it. If you are an oligarch in Russia it seems you still have the opportunity to run off to London or Vancouver, so history repeats itself even now.
  - Anthony-G 8y ago
    Serfs were bound to the land and not much better off than slaves. Another lord would not have welcomed a runaway serf and escaping to a city would have been an extremely risky venture as serfs had little – if any – money (subsistence farming was the order of the day, when not working for the lord on his lands). Giving up their family and wider social support network to become an anonymous beggar in a city would not have been a good move. Even if one had a skill, the city guilds controlled the ability to use skills for commercial purposes. It’s possible that a few people (e.g., gifted musicians) may have been able to escape the bonds of serfdom. I also don’t know how easy it was for a serf to join a monastery or a convent – but otherwise, I imagine the proportion of serfs who could run away to the city is likely to have been equivalent to the proportion of modern-day Mancunian kids who escape the council estate by playing for Manchester United.
    - HarryHirsch 8y ago
      Wikipedia would have you believe the contrary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_peasants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_peasants "Stadtluft macht frei" and the related "year and a day" are still German proverbs. Eric Hansen made similar assertions here (popular history, but sounds plausible): https://www.amazon.com/-/dp/3596173248/ https://www.amazon.com/-/dp/3596173248/
      - Anthony-G 8y ago
        I knew the experience of European serfs varied a lot in terms of freedoms and obligations to their lord but everything I’d read until now about life in feudal Europe lead me to understand there was very little mobility – and particularly so for the lower classes. That Wikipedia article provides an interesting counterpoint so thanks for that. I’d also only come across “a year and a day” as the pre-marriage trial period that a couple would spend together in the tradition of hand-fasting – and the old common law standard regarding attribution of cause of death. I was not aware that it also served as the length of time that escaped serfs would be legally freed if they managed to survive that long.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> In a feudal system the money flows up Well, value; in the classical feudal system the lowest classes would rarely have much money to flow anywhere, and their obligations were mostly in-kind in labor and produce, not monetary.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]