5 ms·

”Tax payers have lost up to €2 billion, that’s nearly €350,000 for every Danish man, woman and child.” You sure about that math, cumex-files?

Wildgoose 8y ago
Just arrived to make the exact same comment. Overstated a 1000 times, which suggests they are mistaking the new US-style billion of 1000 million for the old form of a billion (i.e. a million million).
- Svip 8y ago
  I think the different 'billions' are called long and short scales.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales
mseidl 8y ago
Only off my a 1000x
gilleain 8y ago
What? Denmark is a small town of 5,700 people, isn't it? edit: Then I got curious about what size a 'town' is, which led me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_hierarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_hierarchy which gave me the word 'Ecumenopolis' for a planet-wide city.
fastball 8y ago
Yeah, due to a very poor birthrate, the Danish population is currently at an all time low of ~5700 souls.
- sparkling 8y ago
  And thats why they need muh immigration. jk
GeneralMayhem 8y ago
Possibly confusion by someone who's used to the long scale? In Danish, as in most non-English European languages, the cognate of "billion" means trillion (10^12).
- buboard 8y ago
  > in most non-English European languages i dont think that's true
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilione https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilione
  - Svip 8y ago
    > i dont think that's true Here is a handy list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_scale_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_sca...
    - buboard 8y ago
      weird. Greek is short, not "other"
      - scatters 8y ago
        The Greek system parallels the short scale, but the terms themselves are derived from the myriad system; δισεκατομμύριο disekatommýrio, 10^9, literally reads twice-hundred-myriad.
  - rostigerpudel 8y ago
    Can confirm it's true for French and German: Million 10^6 Milliard(e) 10^9 Billion 10^12 Billiard(e) 10^15
  - GeneralMayhem 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_scale_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_sca... The UK is the only place in Europe where "billion" means 10^9; in Eastern European languages, there simply isn't an equivalent word, and everywhere else it means 10^12.
pfortuny 8y ago
57.000.0000.000€ is not so much for a tax-evading scheme in the whole of Europe? Or is it...
- sharpneli 8y ago
  It’s not tax evasion. It’s receiving tax refunds from taxes that never were paid. This time it actually is pure theft.
  - pfortuny 8y ago
    Yes, sorry. My bad. This is much worse... what a shame.
flexie 8y ago
Danish tax payers have lost around EUR 1.7B. That's around EUR 300 for every Dane. Still a lot, but a lot less than they claim. I have two takes on this: 1: The Danish tax authorities have been extremely careless in the administration of the rules. They didn't even check that the people owned the shares they claimed to own. Virtually all of it was approved by one employee with zero oversight. 2: Different international banks have either known what was happening, and willingly enabled it, or should have known. Money laundry rules oblige them to check when such giant sums flow in and out of such few accounts.
- kartan 8y ago
  > They didn't even check that the people owned the shares they claimed to own Yes. But people hates bureaucracy. A common answer is'why do I need to present another document in the tax office?' At least now Danish citizens have an answer. 'to avoid losing 1.7B' bureaucracy is a remedy to a problem. It can be done right or wrong, but it's not bad by itself.
  - caf 8y ago
    They should have the companies themselves submit their share register as of the in-dividend date to the tax authority (which the company has to know anyway, since you can be damn sure that they're not paying dividends to people who didn't own the shares!). No register no refunds.
- skummetmaelk 8y ago
  The Danish tax disaster has a long history beginning in the early 00's when it was decided to reform and digitalize the tax collection. Contractors were brought in to develop a nation-wide tax collection system that would reduce the cost of collecting tax. This system was to take many years to develop and a plan was made to gradually lay off employees in the tax collection agency as the system was made ready so that there would not be a massive excess of employees when the system was released. Of course the system was delayed.. by years... And there were fewer experienced employees available because the lay-off policy was to let people retire as normal, but just stop hiring. When the system finally was released, the tax collection service was in dire straits. Layoffs had continued, experience was lost. Employees were doing the work of 3 people without really knowing how and having noone to ask for advice. To top it off, it was politically decided to decentralise the tax collection service and split the offices into many small units across the country. Causing even more people to quit. This isn't the end though. The system was released all right, but it was quickly discovered that it was making illegal tax collections from citizens due to faulty property evaluation. Attempts were made to fix the system, but it was SCRAPPED AFTER TWO YEARS. Now we are left with a broken tax collection agency which cannot perform its duties and lacks manpower to verify tax claims from companies knowingly exploiting the situation.
chvid 8y ago
From observing this story in the danish media, there is a lot of fishiness about it. The numbers are just too big for it to make sense. And I would not be surprised to see some of it coming down to the lack of math skills (or what you call it?) amongst journalists. How can anyone arrive at a result like that and not look one more time at their calculation? Embarrassing really. With all the fuzz about Sanjay (the alleged perpetrator) why hasn’t the danish police issued an international arrest order for him? Regardless if he is sitting in Dubai.
- Certhas 8y ago
  That embarrassing error of a factor 1000 aside, the story is all to real. It's been brewing and been reported on in Germany for a few years now. And what seems to be a common theme is that some of what has been going on is very hard to prosecute. The first wave of tricks seems to have been basically legal if I recall correctly. I haven't read the new slew of articles about the EU dimension on this yet though.
  - chvid 8y ago
    I have no doubt that there are elements of the story that are correct. But the shocking part of the story is the size of the amounts and the poor reporting by what should be an ace journalistic team coupled with common sense makes me doubt that the scale is correct. Plus the recent the story that Sanjay was put in jail due to a rubber check. Doesn’t sound like a guy who just got away with 1 B euros.
raffael-vogler 8y ago
The quote in the English text is: "In Denmark, journalists and the authorities are also investigating the cum-ex trades. Tax payers have lost up to €2 billion * , that’s nearly €350 for every Danish man, woman and child." That's correct - mathwise. *: https://translate.google.com/#en/de/billion https://translate.google.com/#en/de/billion
- Reason077 8y ago
  Yes, looks like they have now corrected the article.
pvaldes 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator The decimal separator in most european countries is the comma. $350,000 in Denmark equals to $350. If there is an error by a factor of x1000 I would assume that is a case of meaning lost in translation and not intentional. The use of a third decimal is uncommon and unfortunate in any case.
- dhimes 8y ago
  They wouldn't use three trailing zeros. More likely is that they interpreted 1B as a million million, like the British do, instead of 1000 million.
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    Maybe a translator thought that it was an error and 'fixed it' adding the extra zero...
  - Reason077 8y ago
    Billion means “1000 million” in British English, not “million million” (which is Trillion).
    - dhimes 8y ago
      Did they change it?
      - Reason077 8y ago
        Yes, many decades ago. The modern “short scale” billion Is found in UK technical documents and papers beginning in the 1950s, and used in official UK statistics since 1974. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion
2color 8y ago
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark...

Wildgoose 8y ago

Just arrived to make the exact same comment. Overstated a 1000 times, which suggests they are mistaking the new US-style billion of 1000 million for the old form of a billion (i.e. a million million).

Svip 8y ago
I think the different 'billions' are called long and short scales.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales

mseidl 8y ago

Only off my a 1000x

gilleain 8y ago

What? Denmark is a small town of 5,700 people, isn't it? edit: Then I got curious about what size a 'town' is, which led me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_hierarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_hierarchy which gave me the word 'Ecumenopolis' for a planet-wide city.

fastball 8y ago

Yeah, due to a very poor birthrate, the Danish population is currently at an all time low of ~5700 souls.

sparkling 8y ago
And thats why they need muh immigration. jk

GeneralMayhem 8y ago

Possibly confusion by someone who's used to the long scale? In Danish, as in most non-English European languages, the cognate of "billion" means trillion (10^12).

buboard 8y ago
> in most non-English European languages i dont think that's true
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilione https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilione
- Svip 8y ago
  > i dont think that's true Here is a handy list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_scale_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_sca...
  - buboard 8y ago
    weird. Greek is short, not "other"
    - scatters 8y ago
      The Greek system parallels the short scale, but the terms themselves are derived from the myriad system; δισεκατομμύριο disekatommýrio, 10^9, literally reads twice-hundred-myriad.
- rostigerpudel 8y ago
  Can confirm it's true for French and German: Million 10^6 Milliard(e) 10^9 Billion 10^12 Billiard(e) 10^15
- GeneralMayhem 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_scale_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Long_sca... The UK is the only place in Europe where "billion" means 10^9; in Eastern European languages, there simply isn't an equivalent word, and everywhere else it means 10^12.

pfortuny 8y ago

57.000.0000.000€ is not so much for a tax-evading scheme in the whole of Europe? Or is it...

sharpneli 8y ago
It’s not tax evasion. It’s receiving tax refunds from taxes that never were paid. This time it actually is pure theft.
- pfortuny 8y ago
  Yes, sorry. My bad. This is much worse... what a shame.

flexie 8y ago

Danish tax payers have lost around EUR 1.7B. That's around EUR 300 for every Dane. Still a lot, but a lot less than they claim. I have two takes on this: 1: The Danish tax authorities have been extremely careless in the administration of the rules. They didn't even check that the people owned the shares they claimed to own. Virtually all of it was approved by one employee with zero oversight. 2: Different international banks have either known what was happening, and willingly enabled it, or should have known. Money laundry rules oblige them to check when such giant sums flow in and out of such few accounts.

kartan 8y ago
> They didn't even check that the people owned the shares they claimed to own Yes. But people hates bureaucracy. A common answer is'why do I need to present another document in the tax office?' At least now Danish citizens have an answer. 'to avoid losing 1.7B' bureaucracy is a remedy to a problem. It can be done right or wrong, but it's not bad by itself.
- caf 8y ago
  They should have the companies themselves submit their share register as of the in-dividend date to the tax authority (which the company has to know anyway, since you can be damn sure that they're not paying dividends to people who didn't own the shares!). No register no refunds.
skummetmaelk 8y ago
The Danish tax disaster has a long history beginning in the early 00's when it was decided to reform and digitalize the tax collection. Contractors were brought in to develop a nation-wide tax collection system that would reduce the cost of collecting tax. This system was to take many years to develop and a plan was made to gradually lay off employees in the tax collection agency as the system was made ready so that there would not be a massive excess of employees when the system was released. Of course the system was delayed.. by years... And there were fewer experienced employees available because the lay-off policy was to let people retire as normal, but just stop hiring. When the system finally was released, the tax collection service was in dire straits. Layoffs had continued, experience was lost. Employees were doing the work of 3 people without really knowing how and having noone to ask for advice. To top it off, it was politically decided to decentralise the tax collection service and split the offices into many small units across the country. Causing even more people to quit. This isn't the end though. The system was released all right, but it was quickly discovered that it was making illegal tax collections from citizens due to faulty property evaluation. Attempts were made to fix the system, but it was SCRAPPED AFTER TWO YEARS. Now we are left with a broken tax collection agency which cannot perform its duties and lacks manpower to verify tax claims from companies knowingly exploiting the situation.

chvid 8y ago

From observing this story in the danish media, there is a lot of fishiness about it. The numbers are just too big for it to make sense. And I would not be surprised to see some of it coming down to the lack of math skills (or what you call it?) amongst journalists. How can anyone arrive at a result like that and not look one more time at their calculation? Embarrassing really. With all the fuzz about Sanjay (the alleged perpetrator) why hasn’t the danish police issued an international arrest order for him? Regardless if he is sitting in Dubai.

Certhas 8y ago
That embarrassing error of a factor 1000 aside, the story is all to real. It's been brewing and been reported on in Germany for a few years now. And what seems to be a common theme is that some of what has been going on is very hard to prosecute. The first wave of tricks seems to have been basically legal if I recall correctly. I haven't read the new slew of articles about the EU dimension on this yet though.
- chvid 8y ago
  I have no doubt that there are elements of the story that are correct. But the shocking part of the story is the size of the amounts and the poor reporting by what should be an ace journalistic team coupled with common sense makes me doubt that the scale is correct. Plus the recent the story that Sanjay was put in jail due to a rubber check. Doesn’t sound like a guy who just got away with 1 B euros.

raffael-vogler 8y ago

The quote in the English text is: "In Denmark, journalists and the authorities are also investigating the cum-ex trades. Tax payers have lost up to €2 billion * , that’s nearly €350 for every Danish man, woman and child." That's correct - mathwise. *: https://translate.google.com/#en/de/billion https://translate.google.com/#en/de/billion

Reason077 8y ago
Yes, looks like they have now corrected the article.

pvaldes 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator The decimal separator in most european countries is the comma. $350,000 in Denmark equals to $350. If there is an error by a factor of x1000 I would assume that is a case of meaning lost in translation and not intentional. The use of a third decimal is uncommon and unfortunate in any case.

dhimes 8y ago
They wouldn't use three trailing zeros. More likely is that they interpreted 1B as a million million, like the British do, instead of 1000 million.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Maybe a translator thought that it was an error and 'fixed it' adding the extra zero...
- Reason077 8y ago
  Billion means “1000 million” in British English, not “million million” (which is Trillion).
  - dhimes 8y ago
    Did they change it?
    - Reason077 8y ago
      Yes, many decades ago. The modern “short scale” billion Is found in UK technical documents and papers beginning in the 1950s, and used in official UK statistics since 1974. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion

2color 8y ago

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark...