4 ms·

Professional classical singer here. I'm personally glad that I don't have absolute pitch, or at least not any version that is mostly focused on A=440 Hz, becaus

by Bud 8y ago

Professional classical singer here. I'm personally glad that I don't have absolute pitch, or at least not any version that is mostly focused on A=440 Hz, because as an early-music performer, I regularly have to sing at A=415 (for Bach and other Baroque composers), A=430 (for Mozart on classical-period instruments), A=440, and even A=465 (for Monteverdi) at times. And occasionally at other pitches. And with varying temperaments. This discussion doesn't seem to be acknowledging how many pitch standards there are that are still in common use, and even in increasingly-common use due to the original-instruments movement.

sizzzzlerz 8y ago
That's interesting. Do you know why pitch varied so much at those periods and why have we settled on A=440 being considered orchestral pitch these days? I'd think having to sing at these different pitches must be difficult since you can't tune your voice like a instrument can.
- SwellJoe 8y ago
  There's a pretty good/brief Wikipedia article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch (see specifically "Pitch Inflation" In short, it was competition for the performance to seem more "bright" and exciting. It's arbitrary, but for performers to reach higher pitches was viewed as more challenging (and it is, for singers). The wiki article is cited, so you can read up in as much depth as you like. But, it mostly boils down to, "That's just what people liked during important periods of musical development. And, then we stopped because technology advanced to the point where we could very accurately determine pitch and for the past 50+ years the majority of recorded and performed music has been A=440, or very close to it."
SwellJoe 8y ago
It's my understanding that perfect pitch can be tuned, and also trained to deal with microtonal harmonies, etc. I don't think it is a straight jacket. Jacob Collier, I think(?), has perfect pitch, but going outside of western harmony is his schtick. I think it's more like learning new words as an adult rather than a cage. But, maybe I'm wrong? I've heard anecdotally of people with perfect pitch complaining about some music being "out of tune", but I somehow doubt musicians are saying that, since as you note, music comes in all sorts of tunings (and the more interesting the music is, the more likely it is to go in weird directions, in terms of tuning, scales, etc.).
- mhh__ 8y ago
  Jacob Colliers perfect pitch is apparently (if his tricks on stream are to be believed) accurate to a few cents
  - SwellJoe 8y ago
    I'm inclined to believe it. I don't care for his music, but he's really impressive from a technical perspective. He can zero in on incredibly tiny pitch variations, when listening and singing. Hearing him sing microtonal stuff is downright intimidating. Anyway, since he does have absolute pitch, I think he is very strong evidence that it doesn't limit you to A=440 and 12 tone equal temperament, because he is frequently wildly divergent from that, exploring microtonal music, harmonic series tunings, etc. It seems to be freeing rather than limiting (I understand some of that stuff on a theoretical level, but not on a level where I could improvise or compose in those languages without a lot of work and a whole new approach to ear training...musical concepts he studies and seems to grok in days or weeks would take me months or years).
mwcampbell 8y ago
You make a good point. I have absolute pitch, or at least something very close. When I was 16, we sang several of the songs from Handel's Messiah in my high school choir. A couple of times, our teacher played a recording. And I, knowing nothing about the history, criticized it for being flat. I'm pretty sure it was A=410. We did our performances at A=440 though.
- Bud 8y ago
  (Very very unlikely to have been A=410. A=415 is very likely.)
flyinghamster 8y ago
I'm an amateur classical singer, and I definitely have trouble dealing with A=415 when sight reading. Another problem with absolute pitch, in a cappella singing: hearing another section of the choir go flat and either having to follow along or vainly try to prop the pitch up.
- organsnyder 8y ago
  That's just as painful with good relative pitch. :-D I dropped out of a choir largely because the director put up with (or didn't notice) some pretty bad flatting. This was an otherwise superb choir, who has been to national ACDA conventions multiple times. My other choir (a semiprofessional chamber choir) sharps occasionally (especially with songs in the key of F), but never flats.

by Bud 8y ago

sizzzzlerz 8y ago

That's interesting. Do you know why pitch varied so much at those periods and why have we settled on A=440 being considered orchestral pitch these days? I'd think having to sing at these different pitches must be difficult since you can't tune your voice like a instrument can.

SwellJoe 8y ago
There's a pretty good/brief Wikipedia article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch (see specifically "Pitch Inflation" In short, it was competition for the performance to seem more "bright" and exciting. It's arbitrary, but for performers to reach higher pitches was viewed as more challenging (and it is, for singers). The wiki article is cited, so you can read up in as much depth as you like. But, it mostly boils down to, "That's just what people liked during important periods of musical development. And, then we stopped because technology advanced to the point where we could very accurately determine pitch and for the past 50+ years the majority of recorded and performed music has been A=440, or very close to it."

SwellJoe 8y ago

It's my understanding that perfect pitch can be tuned, and also trained to deal with microtonal harmonies, etc. I don't think it is a straight jacket. Jacob Collier, I think(?), has perfect pitch, but going outside of western harmony is his schtick. I think it's more like learning new words as an adult rather than a cage. But, maybe I'm wrong? I've heard anecdotally of people with perfect pitch complaining about some music being "out of tune", but I somehow doubt musicians are saying that, since as you note, music comes in all sorts of tunings (and the more interesting the music is, the more likely it is to go in weird directions, in terms of tuning, scales, etc.).

mhh__ 8y ago
Jacob Colliers perfect pitch is apparently (if his tricks on stream are to be believed) accurate to a few cents
- SwellJoe 8y ago
  I'm inclined to believe it. I don't care for his music, but he's really impressive from a technical perspective. He can zero in on incredibly tiny pitch variations, when listening and singing. Hearing him sing microtonal stuff is downright intimidating. Anyway, since he does have absolute pitch, I think he is very strong evidence that it doesn't limit you to A=440 and 12 tone equal temperament, because he is frequently wildly divergent from that, exploring microtonal music, harmonic series tunings, etc. It seems to be freeing rather than limiting (I understand some of that stuff on a theoretical level, but not on a level where I could improvise or compose in those languages without a lot of work and a whole new approach to ear training...musical concepts he studies and seems to grok in days or weeks would take me months or years).

mwcampbell 8y ago

You make a good point. I have absolute pitch, or at least something very close. When I was 16, we sang several of the songs from Handel's Messiah in my high school choir. A couple of times, our teacher played a recording. And I, knowing nothing about the history, criticized it for being flat. I'm pretty sure it was A=410. We did our performances at A=440 though.

Bud 8y ago
(Very very unlikely to have been A=410. A=415 is very likely.)

flyinghamster 8y ago

I'm an amateur classical singer, and I definitely have trouble dealing with A=415 when sight reading. Another problem with absolute pitch, in a cappella singing: hearing another section of the choir go flat and either having to follow along or vainly try to prop the pitch up.

organsnyder 8y ago
That's just as painful with good relative pitch. :-D I dropped out of a choir largely because the director put up with (or didn't notice) some pretty bad flatting. This was an otherwise superb choir, who has been to national ACDA conventions multiple times. My other choir (a semiprofessional chamber choir) sharps occasionally (especially with songs in the key of F), but never flats.