5 ms·

Sigh. I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, it comes across as selfish and staying in your ideological bubble. Libraries exist to serve a community. Young

Sigh. I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, it comes across as selfish and staying in your ideological bubble. Libraries exist to serve a community. Young children aren't junkies and your assertion seems specious. Libraries aren't crack houses or heroin dens and using that as a reason to not support them is, well, far fetched. You can ask libraries to get books you are interested in. Further you can request the books you want via the ILL (Inter Library Loan) System from around the country or the world. You get the value out of the library that you put into it.

alexanderwept 8y ago
>You can ask libraries to get books you are interested in. I can also just go online and buy them and they show up at my front door. >You get the value out of the library that you put into it. My tax liability is such that that I put a lot of value into the library. I try to get use of the library, but I'm not going to inconvenience myself to use it. That it's easier for me to spend the $5-$10 to buy a book rather than deal with the ILL bologna is a sign that the library isn't really working for me. >it comes across as selfish and staying in your ideological bubble. And that's my prerogative. However, it's not like I'm hoarding my money and acting like a scrooge mcduck. Every dollar my library gets to keep the dust off of feminist "all men are bad" literature is a dollar that's not going to alleviating hunger or malaria. Isn't it selfish of the library to misuse the money that could be better spent on the less fortunate?
- patmcc 8y ago
  >>Isn't it selfish of the library to misuse the money that could be better spent on the less fortunate? Gosh, I hope you don't have any vices or leisure pursuits.
  - tynpeddler 8y ago
    Private citizens don't have the same moral burdens that public enterprises do.
- nkrisc 8y ago
  You seem to be fortunate enough to have other options. Not everyone is so fortunate. Personally I believe society as a whole is better when we offer opportunities for education and self-improvement to those who can't otherwise afford it. Many people derive real value from public libraries simply because it is the only option they have for the services it offers. Personally I haven't set foot in a library in a long time but I would proudly and gladly vote to increase funding for libraries, even at my own tax expense. I earn enough for my family to live comfortably. Increasing my material wealth further won't bring any increase in personal happiness so I will gladly spend it to better society as a whole, even if I do not directly benefit from it.
  - alexanderwept 8y ago
    >Personally I believe society as a whole is better when we offer opportunities for education and self-improvement to those who can't otherwise afford it. And you're welcome to do that with your own money. Why is the cause so moral that others get to decide I have to support it with my money?
    - nkrisc 8y ago
      That's a complicated question but I'll sum up my thoughts on it by saying because you have benefited from it too. Would you have reached your position in life if not for a stable society and functioning economy? As I see it we've got to pay it forward for the next generation as the last did for us. Whether you prefer it or not you are a part of our shared society. There is of course more nuance to it all.
      - alexanderwept 8y ago
        I didn't ask for this. If society collapsed and I became a sustenance farmer or hunter gatherer, that'd be alright by me. I agree with the rule of law and I'll do what I'm legally obligated to do, however, every chance I get I'm going to vote in favor of returning to the pre-history status quo of all-against-all.
- IOT_Apprentice 8y ago
  google your <city name> public library interlibrary loan. You can request what you want on-line. Many will also deliver it to you. You can also get ebooks that way as well. Also check out the app called Libby. Perhaps all of this won't satisfy your political needs to "own the libs" by killing libraries, but who knows!
mlrtime 8y ago
People should be voting selfishly, who else is going to look out for your self interest? If most people do NOT think like him, then the library will stay. If most people do not want it , why keep it?
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  You can't run a government like this. Most people don't use most government services, yet the smaller number who do use them really benefit greatly from them. If we voted down all government services that <50% of people use then society ends up suffering greatly. Hell, most people don't even use firefighters; should we vote them down too?
  - claydavisss 8y ago
    We vote to fund firefighting because we all know we COULD make us of the service even if we haven't...this is still a self-interested vote but in the case of firefighting, most cities could drastically reshape their emergency services to put much of what firefighters do in the hands of an emergency response office that is much cheaper to run. its no coincidence that firefighters make sure they are in the critical path of vehicle accident response etc...they realize that structure fires are vanishingly rare and they might otherwise see drastic cuts. there isn't any real reason why a fire truck should be responding to someone with mild whiplash in a rear-ended vehicle (and no, the reason isn't because the vehicle might spontaneously combust).
  - alexanderwept 8y ago
    No one is saying that we should vote down all services that aren't used by <50% of the population. My only point is that decisions are democratically valid if they're ratified by the majority. The majority of people deciding to have libraries is just as democratically legitimate as the majority deciding not the have libraries.
- patmcc 8y ago
  People should be voting for what's best for society as a whole. Sure, consider your own interests as part of that, but "I make $200k therefore people making $200k should get tax breaks" is a pretty shitty way to be.
claydavisss 8y ago
> it comes across as selfish this is how voting is supposed to work - you vote YOUR interests. libraries are one of these things nerds get excited about but don't use. I would be surprised if 5% of HN readers have checked a book out of the library in the last five years. I fund, like and visit my local library but wouldn't see its closure as a sign of the end-times.
- dagw 8y ago
  I would be surprised if 5% of HN readers have checked a book out of the library in the last five years. Sure, I might not have checked out a book in the last five years, but I use my local library probably once a month. Libraries are much more than places to borrow books.
  - claydavisss 8y ago
    But you're paying for the books. If you want a community meeting hall with internet access, it can be run much more cheaply
  - al_chemist 8y ago
    > I might not have checked out a book in the last five years, but I use my local library probably once a month How do you use a library while not using books it hold?
    - thrmsforbfast 8y ago
      Before moving to very-much-big-city, my very-much-not-big-city library had: * nice meeting rooms we used for interest group meetups and community organizing (of the "pick up litter" variety) * copies of TAOCP and of Bourbaki (pro tip: tell your librarians what you want!) I never checked out TAOCP but I'd always show up to meetings an hour early to meetings and read a section. Also a good way to spend a cold Saturday. Made it through a good chunk.
    - tedunangst 8y ago
      You can read books without checking them out.

alexanderwept 8y ago

>You can ask libraries to get books you are interested in. I can also just go online and buy them and they show up at my front door. >You get the value out of the library that you put into it. My tax liability is such that that I put a lot of value into the library. I try to get use of the library, but I'm not going to inconvenience myself to use it. That it's easier for me to spend the $5-$10 to buy a book rather than deal with the ILL bologna is a sign that the library isn't really working for me. >it comes across as selfish and staying in your ideological bubble. And that's my prerogative. However, it's not like I'm hoarding my money and acting like a scrooge mcduck. Every dollar my library gets to keep the dust off of feminist "all men are bad" literature is a dollar that's not going to alleviating hunger or malaria. Isn't it selfish of the library to misuse the money that could be better spent on the less fortunate?

patmcc 8y ago
>>Isn't it selfish of the library to misuse the money that could be better spent on the less fortunate? Gosh, I hope you don't have any vices or leisure pursuits.
- tynpeddler 8y ago
  Private citizens don't have the same moral burdens that public enterprises do.
nkrisc 8y ago
You seem to be fortunate enough to have other options. Not everyone is so fortunate. Personally I believe society as a whole is better when we offer opportunities for education and self-improvement to those who can't otherwise afford it. Many people derive real value from public libraries simply because it is the only option they have for the services it offers. Personally I haven't set foot in a library in a long time but I would proudly and gladly vote to increase funding for libraries, even at my own tax expense. I earn enough for my family to live comfortably. Increasing my material wealth further won't bring any increase in personal happiness so I will gladly spend it to better society as a whole, even if I do not directly benefit from it.
- alexanderwept 8y ago
  >Personally I believe society as a whole is better when we offer opportunities for education and self-improvement to those who can't otherwise afford it. And you're welcome to do that with your own money. Why is the cause so moral that others get to decide I have to support it with my money?
  - nkrisc 8y ago
    That's a complicated question but I'll sum up my thoughts on it by saying because you have benefited from it too. Would you have reached your position in life if not for a stable society and functioning economy? As I see it we've got to pay it forward for the next generation as the last did for us. Whether you prefer it or not you are a part of our shared society. There is of course more nuance to it all.
    - alexanderwept 8y ago
      I didn't ask for this. If society collapsed and I became a sustenance farmer or hunter gatherer, that'd be alright by me. I agree with the rule of law and I'll do what I'm legally obligated to do, however, every chance I get I'm going to vote in favor of returning to the pre-history status quo of all-against-all.
IOT_Apprentice 8y ago
google your <city name> public library interlibrary loan. You can request what you want on-line. Many will also deliver it to you. You can also get ebooks that way as well. Also check out the app called Libby. Perhaps all of this won't satisfy your political needs to "own the libs" by killing libraries, but who knows!

mlrtime 8y ago

People should be voting selfishly, who else is going to look out for your self interest? If most people do NOT think like him, then the library will stay. If most people do not want it , why keep it?

CydeWeys 8y ago
You can't run a government like this. Most people don't use most government services, yet the smaller number who do use them really benefit greatly from them. If we voted down all government services that <50% of people use then society ends up suffering greatly. Hell, most people don't even use firefighters; should we vote them down too?
- claydavisss 8y ago
  We vote to fund firefighting because we all know we COULD make us of the service even if we haven't...this is still a self-interested vote but in the case of firefighting, most cities could drastically reshape their emergency services to put much of what firefighters do in the hands of an emergency response office that is much cheaper to run. its no coincidence that firefighters make sure they are in the critical path of vehicle accident response etc...they realize that structure fires are vanishingly rare and they might otherwise see drastic cuts. there isn't any real reason why a fire truck should be responding to someone with mild whiplash in a rear-ended vehicle (and no, the reason isn't because the vehicle might spontaneously combust).
- alexanderwept 8y ago
  No one is saying that we should vote down all services that aren't used by <50% of the population. My only point is that decisions are democratically valid if they're ratified by the majority. The majority of people deciding to have libraries is just as democratically legitimate as the majority deciding not the have libraries.
patmcc 8y ago
People should be voting for what's best for society as a whole. Sure, consider your own interests as part of that, but "I make $200k therefore people making $200k should get tax breaks" is a pretty shitty way to be.

claydavisss 8y ago

> it comes across as selfish this is how voting is supposed to work - you vote YOUR interests. libraries are one of these things nerds get excited about but don't use. I would be surprised if 5% of HN readers have checked a book out of the library in the last five years. I fund, like and visit my local library but wouldn't see its closure as a sign of the end-times.

dagw 8y ago
I would be surprised if 5% of HN readers have checked a book out of the library in the last five years. Sure, I might not have checked out a book in the last five years, but I use my local library probably once a month. Libraries are much more than places to borrow books.
- claydavisss 8y ago
  But you're paying for the books. If you want a community meeting hall with internet access, it can be run much more cheaply
- al_chemist 8y ago
  > I might not have checked out a book in the last five years, but I use my local library probably once a month How do you use a library while not using books it hold?
  - thrmsforbfast 8y ago
    Before moving to very-much-big-city, my very-much-not-big-city library had: * nice meeting rooms we used for interest group meetups and community organizing (of the "pick up litter" variety) * copies of TAOCP and of Bourbaki (pro tip: tell your librarians what you want!) I never checked out TAOCP but I'd always show up to meetings an hour early to meetings and read a section. Also a good way to spend a cold Saturday. Made it through a good chunk.
  - tedunangst 8y ago
    You can read books without checking them out.