7 ms·

A university IT guy plans to bid in two government airwave auctions

96 points by apress 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pavel_lishin 8y ago
> How A University IT Guy Looks To Outmaneuver Verizon and AT&T In Upcoming Spectrum Auctions By buying spectrum in an area where they don't want to buy, it turns out. Fun fact: I recently outmaneuvered AT&T in produce sales, by buying some tomatoes they weren't shopping for at the grocery store. (Also, given that Time Warner rebranded itself as "Spectrum", this is not what I thought the article was about; can we lower case the headline except for proper nouns?)
- dang 8y ago
  We've replaced the title with more representative language from the article.
kruptos 8y ago
I work in fixed wireless and I applaud this guys effort. In my area, Sprint purchased all of our 2.5 Ghz licenses and we had to resort to using the new CBRS band alongside unlicensed frequencies.
erikig 8y ago
I've always been curious about the mechanics of the FCC frequency spectrum auctions. I know you can view the results on the FCC site below but I'm not sure how to bid and view ongoing auctions: https://www.fcc.gov/round-results-auctions-held-july-2005-present https://www.fcc.gov/round-results-auctions-held-july-2005-pr... Anyone care to shed some light?
- akira2501 8y ago
  > Anyone care to shed some light? I'm honestly not trying to be flip, but as far as I've figured out the process goes 1) Find a Law firm on K street that specializes in this. 2) Pay them.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    The K street law firm would pull up the FCC’s application instructions: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A1.pdf. Yes, it’s complex. But you’re talking about auctioning an important public resource for a highly complex purpose. It’s like a permit for drilling for oil on government land. But the process is transparent.
    - erikig 8y ago
      It seems Beyerle (our university IT guy) was able to acquire a local license for a seemingly fair $12k after getting a discount from the FCC no less. "About 20 years ago, Beyerle was the winning bidder for one of 14 licenses in a high frequency band for his local area, paying just under $12,000 (after getting a 35% discount that the Federal Communications offered to smaller bidders)."
- late2part 8y ago
  I'm not familiar w/ the FCC process but I was involved in acquiring frequency in a non-US country w/ a non-US company. The process is elaborate game theory. The rules are simple, e.g.: 3 Rounds, must bid twice, can't collude; 5 spectrums up for bid, 4 bidders; can win 2 only, on success must pay and hit milestones A, B, C by date X, Y, Z. Often the system is passively rigged - no actual collusion but everyone knows through deductive reasoning what the others will do; and it goes down as expected.
rayiner 8y ago
Spectrum auctions have a really neat theoretical history. They're rooted in a 1959 paper by one of the pioneers of regulatory economics, Ronald Coase: https://www.chapman.edu/ESI/wp/Porter-Smith-Hazlett-RadioSpectrum.pdf https://www.chapman.edu/ESI/wp/Porter-Smith-Hazlett-RadioSpe.... Today, spectrum auctions are the go-to spectrum allocation tool in not just the U.S., but most of Europe as well.
- gumby 8y ago
  Why auction perpetual rights and not lease them? You could also add a use-it-or-lose-it to avoid dog-in-the-manger exclusion of rivals. "selling" the rights seems short sighted, no matter how you set the price.
  - teraflop 8y ago
    As far as I can tell, the rights are not perpetual. For example, I arbitrarily picked a recent auction for "FM Broadcast" rights (https://www.fcc.gov/auction/98/factsheet https://www.fcc.gov/auction/98/factsheet), and the description states that the rights being auctioned are for an eight-year license period.
  - jcrawfordor 8y ago
    Although it's a bit patchwork, most spectrum rights (from auction to licensure) are use-it-or-lose-it. On licenses as simple as an FM broadcast license, stations must report to the FCC if they will not be broadcasting for any period of time, and if they remain "dark" for too long they face cancellation of their license for non-use. On spectrum auctions it's usually a condition of the license that it will be cancelled if certain conditions specific to the spectrum aren't met, e.g. offering a certain range of services to a certain volume of customers.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Ideally, the government is not in the business of deciding what each block of spectrum should be used for. What Coase proved is that if you auction the spectrum and allow secondary-market transactions in the spectrum, then the spectrum will end up in the highest value use--i.e. the most economically efficient use.[1] It doesn't matter "how you set the price" initially--secondary market transactions will take care of reallocating the spectrum to the best uses. The FCC auctions don't implement fully Coasian auctions--they auction licenses for a limited duration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem
xenadu02 8y ago
Such high frequencies don't seem terribly useful. Aren't they essentially line-of-sight? I'd imagine that explains some of the lack of interest.
- zamalek 8y ago
  Yep. WiGig is 60GHz and won't penetrate even a dry wall. It would make more sense to allocate these frequencies for personal use (although WiGig has that covered), or technologies similar to Artemis pCell[1] (possibly vaporware at this point). [1]: https://www.artemis.com/pcell https://www.artemis.com/pcell
  - escherplex 8y ago
    Even 5GHz wireless phone base units won't penetrate a single layer of standard concrete blocks, like you have in home construction in Florida. Yet 2.5Ghz (WiFi etc.) or below (presumably part 15 at 100 mw) exhibits very little apparent attenuation throughout or outside the house. You may want to check out the Atmospheric Absorption by Frequency chart at the RFCafe site: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/atm-absorption.htm http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/atm-absorption.h...
    - 0x8BADF00D 8y ago
      Would it be possible to quantum tunnel the wave packet through the solid wall of concrete? (In this case it would be the wave produced by an RF device)
      - escherplex 8y ago
        To experiment with quantum tunneling you're dealing with phenomena manifesting at the 1nm scale. One macro level theoretical app for quantum conductivity seems to involve wave packets interacting with perfectly rectangular uniform tightly-spaced cation-nuclei barriers which theoretically allows free electron tunneling (IE, energy transmission). [1] Even if it works, seems like a lot of trouble given that an array of duplex repeaters in the attic could solve the problem. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling BTW Anki as in J-flashcards or as in Robotics?
godelski 8y ago
I honestly don't know why they are focusing on towers. I honestly believe we need to skip that and use LEO sats. While more expensive upfront, it also provides the ability to give global coverage. Some googling will show you white papers with estimates of ~4500 nanosats (30x10x10cm), but you can reduce the number of those by not rolling out usage worldwide and then scale up (entering markets in other countries. Even ones that have NO internet access currently). You have low latency, high speeds, and don't need as many towers. But you HAVE to be in LEO.
- Rebelgecko 8y ago
  Because of how orbits work, I don't think you can really "focus" on an area by reducing the number of satellites without a corresponding decrease in availability and/or throughput. If you have a constellation that has consistent coverage over the US, you're also going to have simultaneous coverage over a good chunk of the rest of the world (although possibly not anywhere more northern than the United States).
  - godelski 8y ago
    You do realize that I addressed this as actually a feature, right? You don't need 4500 to provide global coverage and handle 100m users. And besides, this isn't about orbits, that is about load balancing. Orbits alone doesn't even describe your coverage area. They do provide an upper bound on your viewable area, but you're never going to reach that.
  - late2part 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit
    - runlevel1 8y ago
      Geostationary orbits are very far away. The speed of light being what it is, they aren't great at relaying realtime two-way communication.
symlock 8y ago
How long do air wave licenses last? Is there a substantial cost to renew or do you simply have to re-bid?

96 points by apress 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

> How A University IT Guy Looks To Outmaneuver Verizon and AT&T In Upcoming Spectrum Auctions By buying spectrum in an area where they don't want to buy, it turns out. Fun fact: I recently outmaneuvered AT&T in produce sales, by buying some tomatoes they weren't shopping for at the grocery store. (Also, given that Time Warner rebranded itself as "Spectrum", this is not what I thought the article was about; can we lower case the headline except for proper nouns?)

dang 8y ago
We've replaced the title with more representative language from the article.

kruptos 8y ago

I work in fixed wireless and I applaud this guys effort. In my area, Sprint purchased all of our 2.5 Ghz licenses and we had to resort to using the new CBRS band alongside unlicensed frequencies.

erikig 8y ago

I've always been curious about the mechanics of the FCC frequency spectrum auctions. I know you can view the results on the FCC site below but I'm not sure how to bid and view ongoing auctions: https://www.fcc.gov/round-results-auctions-held-july-2005-present https://www.fcc.gov/round-results-auctions-held-july-2005-pr... Anyone care to shed some light?

akira2501 8y ago
> Anyone care to shed some light? I'm honestly not trying to be flip, but as far as I've figured out the process goes 1) Find a Law firm on K street that specializes in this. 2) Pay them.
- rayiner 8y ago
  The K street law firm would pull up the FCC’s application instructions: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A1.pdf. Yes, it’s complex. But you’re talking about auctioning an important public resource for a highly complex purpose. It’s like a permit for drilling for oil on government land. But the process is transparent.
  - erikig 8y ago
    It seems Beyerle (our university IT guy) was able to acquire a local license for a seemingly fair $12k after getting a discount from the FCC no less. "About 20 years ago, Beyerle was the winning bidder for one of 14 licenses in a high frequency band for his local area, paying just under $12,000 (after getting a 35% discount that the Federal Communications offered to smaller bidders)."
late2part 8y ago
I'm not familiar w/ the FCC process but I was involved in acquiring frequency in a non-US country w/ a non-US company. The process is elaborate game theory. The rules are simple, e.g.: 3 Rounds, must bid twice, can't collude; 5 spectrums up for bid, 4 bidders; can win 2 only, on success must pay and hit milestones A, B, C by date X, Y, Z. Often the system is passively rigged - no actual collusion but everyone knows through deductive reasoning what the others will do; and it goes down as expected.

rayiner 8y ago

Spectrum auctions have a really neat theoretical history. They're rooted in a 1959 paper by one of the pioneers of regulatory economics, Ronald Coase: https://www.chapman.edu/ESI/wp/Porter-Smith-Hazlett-RadioSpectrum.pdf https://www.chapman.edu/ESI/wp/Porter-Smith-Hazlett-RadioSpe.... Today, spectrum auctions are the go-to spectrum allocation tool in not just the U.S., but most of Europe as well.

gumby 8y ago
Why auction perpetual rights and not lease them? You could also add a use-it-or-lose-it to avoid dog-in-the-manger exclusion of rivals. "selling" the rights seems short sighted, no matter how you set the price.
- teraflop 8y ago
  As far as I can tell, the rights are not perpetual. For example, I arbitrarily picked a recent auction for "FM Broadcast" rights (https://www.fcc.gov/auction/98/factsheet https://www.fcc.gov/auction/98/factsheet), and the description states that the rights being auctioned are for an eight-year license period.
- jcrawfordor 8y ago
  Although it's a bit patchwork, most spectrum rights (from auction to licensure) are use-it-or-lose-it. On licenses as simple as an FM broadcast license, stations must report to the FCC if they will not be broadcasting for any period of time, and if they remain "dark" for too long they face cancellation of their license for non-use. On spectrum auctions it's usually a condition of the license that it will be cancelled if certain conditions specific to the spectrum aren't met, e.g. offering a certain range of services to a certain volume of customers.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Ideally, the government is not in the business of deciding what each block of spectrum should be used for. What Coase proved is that if you auction the spectrum and allow secondary-market transactions in the spectrum, then the spectrum will end up in the highest value use--i.e. the most economically efficient use.[1] It doesn't matter "how you set the price" initially--secondary market transactions will take care of reallocating the spectrum to the best uses. The FCC auctions don't implement fully Coasian auctions--they auction licenses for a limited duration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem

xenadu02 8y ago

Such high frequencies don't seem terribly useful. Aren't they essentially line-of-sight? I'd imagine that explains some of the lack of interest.

zamalek 8y ago
Yep. WiGig is 60GHz and won't penetrate even a dry wall. It would make more sense to allocate these frequencies for personal use (although WiGig has that covered), or technologies similar to Artemis pCell[1] (possibly vaporware at this point). [1]: https://www.artemis.com/pcell https://www.artemis.com/pcell
- escherplex 8y ago
  Even 5GHz wireless phone base units won't penetrate a single layer of standard concrete blocks, like you have in home construction in Florida. Yet 2.5Ghz (WiFi etc.) or below (presumably part 15 at 100 mw) exhibits very little apparent attenuation throughout or outside the house. You may want to check out the Atmospheric Absorption by Frequency chart at the RFCafe site: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/atm-absorption.htm http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/atm-absorption.h...
  - 0x8BADF00D 8y ago
    Would it be possible to quantum tunnel the wave packet through the solid wall of concrete? (In this case it would be the wave produced by an RF device)
    - escherplex 8y ago
      To experiment with quantum tunneling you're dealing with phenomena manifesting at the 1nm scale. One macro level theoretical app for quantum conductivity seems to involve wave packets interacting with perfectly rectangular uniform tightly-spaced cation-nuclei barriers which theoretically allows free electron tunneling (IE, energy transmission). [1] Even if it works, seems like a lot of trouble given that an array of duplex repeaters in the attic could solve the problem. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling BTW Anki as in J-flashcards or as in Robotics?

godelski 8y ago

I honestly don't know why they are focusing on towers. I honestly believe we need to skip that and use LEO sats. While more expensive upfront, it also provides the ability to give global coverage. Some googling will show you white papers with estimates of ~4500 nanosats (30x10x10cm), but you can reduce the number of those by not rolling out usage worldwide and then scale up (entering markets in other countries. Even ones that have NO internet access currently). You have low latency, high speeds, and don't need as many towers. But you HAVE to be in LEO.

Rebelgecko 8y ago
Because of how orbits work, I don't think you can really "focus" on an area by reducing the number of satellites without a corresponding decrease in availability and/or throughput. If you have a constellation that has consistent coverage over the US, you're also going to have simultaneous coverage over a good chunk of the rest of the world (although possibly not anywhere more northern than the United States).
- godelski 8y ago
  You do realize that I addressed this as actually a feature, right? You don't need 4500 to provide global coverage and handle 100m users. And besides, this isn't about orbits, that is about load balancing. Orbits alone doesn't even describe your coverage area. They do provide an upper bound on your viewable area, but you're never going to reach that.
- late2part 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit
  - runlevel1 8y ago
    Geostationary orbits are very far away. The speed of light being what it is, they aren't great at relaying realtime two-way communication.

symlock 8y ago

How long do air wave licenses last? Is there a substantial cost to renew or do you simply have to re-bid?