4 ms·

Yet strangely, the loudest voices AGAINST doing away with tipping in favor of a wage are often wait staff themselves.

by sillyquiet 8y ago

acheron 8y ago
That's because it would make it harder for them to continue committing tax fraud.
- dpiers 8y ago
  Part of it is the waitstaff avoiding tax on tips, the other part is that it allows the business to avoid payroll tax on the majority of waitstaff's earnings. In order to get a waiter to an effective $10/hr after-tax income you'd have to pay $15-16/hr versus $2+$8 in tips.
  - beatgammit 8y ago
    That doesn't make any sense. Who's paying 37% taxes as a waiter/waitress? Even before Trump's tax cut, wait staff would still likely be in the 10-15% bracket, and you'd add on 12.5% FICA taxes. And this is after deductions, so effective tax rate will be much lower. Unless your state has 20+% income tax, there's no way a waitress is paying 35%. Corporate taxes don't factor in either because they are only on profit over and above all expenses. Increasing wages of an employee and shifting payment from tips to w2 income merely ensures the employee pays the taxes they should've be paying in the first place and will not increase corporate taxes. If wait staff shifted to higher wages, the employer would increase prices and could note on the menu that tipping is not necessary, but appreciated. If that was the case, I would still tip, but only for above average service.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  The vast majority of tips these days are paid via cc, so no, not it at all.
- i88y6 8y ago
  And it would dismantle the sexist construct that allows attractive women to claim disproportionately higher wages than men.
  - mactrey 8y ago
    It's not really a sexist construct since an attractive man easily makes more in tips than an unattractive woman... It's more the societal construct that attractive = good, which is pernicious but quite deeply ingrained in human society.
codemac 8y ago
Have you ever worked at a restaurant or in a tipped position? It constitutes a HUGE part of your take home pay for two reasons: - If you are a waiter, tips will be multiples of your hourly pay. - Tips will be under the table, saving you another ~25% easily. So if you make a tipped hourly wage in Ohio: - $4.15/hr * 7 hour shift (5pm open to 12pm close): 29.05 - Wait 6 tables, each with 3 seated parties, that tip you each $10: $60 * 3 = $120 Tips represent 4x of your salary. If your job gave you an untaxed 400% bonus at the end of every day, would you vote against it?
- fireflash38 8y ago
  > - $4.15/hr * 7 hour shift (5pm open to 12pm close): 29.05 Shouldn't you compare to the minimum wage at least? Or you could compare to a standard wage similar to what would be paid in other countries.
  - mikestew 8y ago
    Shouldn't you compare to the minimum wage at least? Not in the state of Ohio, apparently. In many states, waitstaff can be paid below minimum wage, because tips!
- kazinator 8y ago
  > If your job gave you an untaxed 400% bonus at the end of every day, would you vote against it? I'd be rather more worried about getting caught by the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency.
  - awalton 8y ago
    If you're getting audited when you're working at or near the poverty line, the world's fucking broken. There are billionaires out there running around paying next to no taxes because they just don't feel like it and the IRS hardly ever shows up at their doors. They only like to stick it to the millionaires - especially celebrities and other "rags to riches" stories - since that "sends a message" to us work-a-day salaried folk not to get too shifty with the IRS. If the IRS went on a crusade against underreported tips, there would be an absolute bloodbath in the poorer parts of this country, as tips easily represent more of their income than wages. Fortunately untaxed tips have dropped dramatically now that fewer and fewer people are using cash for transactions, so the IRS has had to take no such corrective actions.
MrEfficiency 8y ago
This seems like such a non-issue, I'm not sure why articles are written about tipping. Wait staff love tips because it gets them paid significantly more than if they worked a retail job. After visiting Europe, tips are necessary for good service. The rudeness and lack of service was culture shock.
- jaclaz 8y ago
  >After visiting Europe ... All Europe was like this?
- em500 8y ago
  Visit Japan next time and you'd conclude that tips are not necessary for good service after all.
- eesmith 8y ago
  While my experience in Europe has been just fine, in Italy, Germany, and the UK. Though in the UK I was confused about the lack of service, until I realized that I needed to order at the bar. There is a stereotype that blacks are worse tippers than whites. As https://www.ebony.com/news-views/are-black-people-really-bad-tippers-981 https://www.ebony.com/news-views/are-black-people-really-bad... comments, it might be because blacks have "Insufficient education about tipping", or "a loop of circular behavior where Blacks have been traditionally discriminated against, Blacks expect to be treated poorly and treat servers with disdain, servers treat Black patrons with less care because they “know” Blacks tip poorly, and Blacks continue to tip poorly because they continue to get substandard service." (there are a couple of other proposed reasons). See for example http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_article.pdf http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_a... which includes the quote “I will not take Black tables unless I have no other option; call me racist, but I also walk out with more money than the people who end up with them.” Yes, if you are a black American, you might get rudeness and lack of service in service in your own country - because wait staff think you won't tip well.
- kentosi 8y ago
  Visit Australia. Tips are not expected and the service is excellent.
dragonwriter 8y ago
There's a bit of survivorship bias; those who don't do well on tips don't last in tipped industries, both because tips are a big part of income and because tips are used as performance metrics.

Yet strangely, the loudest voices AGAINST doing away with tipping in favor of a wage are often wait staff themselves.

acheron 8y ago

That's because it would make it harder for them to continue committing tax fraud.

dpiers 8y ago
Part of it is the waitstaff avoiding tax on tips, the other part is that it allows the business to avoid payroll tax on the majority of waitstaff's earnings. In order to get a waiter to an effective $10/hr after-tax income you'd have to pay $15-16/hr versus $2+$8 in tips.
- beatgammit 8y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. Who's paying 37% taxes as a waiter/waitress? Even before Trump's tax cut, wait staff would still likely be in the 10-15% bracket, and you'd add on 12.5% FICA taxes. And this is after deductions, so effective tax rate will be much lower. Unless your state has 20+% income tax, there's no way a waitress is paying 35%. Corporate taxes don't factor in either because they are only on profit over and above all expenses. Increasing wages of an employee and shifting payment from tips to w2 income merely ensures the employee pays the taxes they should've be paying in the first place and will not increase corporate taxes. If wait staff shifted to higher wages, the employer would increase prices and could note on the menu that tipping is not necessary, but appreciated. If that was the case, I would still tip, but only for above average service.
EpicEng 8y ago
The vast majority of tips these days are paid via cc, so no, not it at all.
i88y6 8y ago
And it would dismantle the sexist construct that allows attractive women to claim disproportionately higher wages than men.
- mactrey 8y ago
  It's not really a sexist construct since an attractive man easily makes more in tips than an unattractive woman... It's more the societal construct that attractive = good, which is pernicious but quite deeply ingrained in human society.

codemac 8y ago

Have you ever worked at a restaurant or in a tipped position? It constitutes a HUGE part of your take home pay for two reasons: - If you are a waiter, tips will be multiples of your hourly pay. - Tips will be under the table, saving you another ~25% easily. So if you make a tipped hourly wage in Ohio: - $4.15/hr * 7 hour shift (5pm open to 12pm close): 29.05 - Wait 6 tables, each with 3 seated parties, that tip you each $10: $60 * 3 = $120 Tips represent 4x of your salary. If your job gave you an untaxed 400% bonus at the end of every day, would you vote against it?

fireflash38 8y ago
> - $4.15/hr * 7 hour shift (5pm open to 12pm close): 29.05 Shouldn't you compare to the minimum wage at least? Or you could compare to a standard wage similar to what would be paid in other countries.
- mikestew 8y ago
  Shouldn't you compare to the minimum wage at least? Not in the state of Ohio, apparently. In many states, waitstaff can be paid below minimum wage, because tips!
kazinator 8y ago
> If your job gave you an untaxed 400% bonus at the end of every day, would you vote against it? I'd be rather more worried about getting caught by the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency.
- awalton 8y ago
  If you're getting audited when you're working at or near the poverty line, the world's fucking broken. There are billionaires out there running around paying next to no taxes because they just don't feel like it and the IRS hardly ever shows up at their doors. They only like to stick it to the millionaires - especially celebrities and other "rags to riches" stories - since that "sends a message" to us work-a-day salaried folk not to get too shifty with the IRS. If the IRS went on a crusade against underreported tips, there would be an absolute bloodbath in the poorer parts of this country, as tips easily represent more of their income than wages. Fortunately untaxed tips have dropped dramatically now that fewer and fewer people are using cash for transactions, so the IRS has had to take no such corrective actions.

MrEfficiency 8y ago

This seems like such a non-issue, I'm not sure why articles are written about tipping. Wait staff love tips because it gets them paid significantly more than if they worked a retail job. After visiting Europe, tips are necessary for good service. The rudeness and lack of service was culture shock.

jaclaz 8y ago
>After visiting Europe ... All Europe was like this?
em500 8y ago
Visit Japan next time and you'd conclude that tips are not necessary for good service after all.
eesmith 8y ago
While my experience in Europe has been just fine, in Italy, Germany, and the UK. Though in the UK I was confused about the lack of service, until I realized that I needed to order at the bar. There is a stereotype that blacks are worse tippers than whites. As https://www.ebony.com/news-views/are-black-people-really-bad-tippers-981 https://www.ebony.com/news-views/are-black-people-really-bad... comments, it might be because blacks have "Insufficient education about tipping", or "a loop of circular behavior where Blacks have been traditionally discriminated against, Blacks expect to be treated poorly and treat servers with disdain, servers treat Black patrons with less care because they “know” Blacks tip poorly, and Blacks continue to tip poorly because they continue to get substandard service." (there are a couple of other proposed reasons). See for example http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_article.pdf http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_a... which includes the quote “I will not take Black tables unless I have no other option; call me racist, but I also walk out with more money than the people who end up with them.” Yes, if you are a black American, you might get rudeness and lack of service in service in your own country - because wait staff think you won't tip well.
kentosi 8y ago
Visit Australia. Tips are not expected and the service is excellent.

dragonwriter 8y ago

There's a bit of survivorship bias; those who don't do well on tips don't last in tipped industries, both because tips are a big part of income and because tips are used as performance metrics.