5 ms·

No guilt. No tip. Never. If they want more than the listed price they should raise the listed price. Social customs/expectations/guilt/whatever be damned. I nev

by jjuhl 8y ago

No guilt. No tip. Never. If they want more than the listed price they should raise the listed price. Social customs/expectations/guilt/whatever be damned. I never tip. Never have, never will.

X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
That's a bit extreme. I hope you don't eat at sit down restaurants often.
- pc86 8y ago
  Or the same one more than once. Stiffing waiters in the same establishment more than one is a risky proposition at best.
  - wetpaws 8y ago
    That's not stiffing, the price is written on a check, so what you probably mean is "economic transaction". Paying waiters low on the other hand is stiffing.
    - X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
      That's not how all the players view it. Like it or not just because you feel justified in something doesn't mean that others will.
      - wetpaws 8y ago
        When you buy products on Amazon, do you look for more expensive or less expensive listings?
        X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
        That's a false equivalency.
        wetpaws 8y ago
        How is it different? They are both a group of people providing you with added value for a specific price.
        X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
        The simplest difference is expectation.
- jjuhl 8y ago
  I do. But I never tip. They get the price they ask, that I can see before I order. That should be enough or they should change their prices/wages so tipping is not necessary. And no, I don't feel the least guilty about that.
  - aaaaaaass 8y ago
    Lmao you must be fun at parties
  - telchar 8y ago
    If you want to claim to be principled about this then you should inform the waitstaff at the start of the interaction that you don't intend to tip. The price they ask has expectation of tip built in implicitly - failing to disclose that you won't tip is therefore a lie of omission. I hope you're not that sort of person.
    - late2part 8y ago
      2 thoughts. #1 - I feel you are assuming requirements about the optionality of tipping. The gratuity is optional for whatever reason, regardless of social expectations. So in my opinion one can be moral and ethical without disclosing why they don't tip. #2 - I waited tables, and a very good waiter once told me that he gives every table the same service whether they do or don't tip, and no matter how much they tip. I feel many servers lack this mentality; which leads to more people tipping less. When I waited tables, 10% was an okay tip, 15% was stellar. Now it seems like 20% is assumed and folks have a social signalling competition to tip 25-30%. Doesn't make sense.
      - telchar 8y ago
        You're right that the gratuity is optional, but there is still a strong general expectation that most people will tip. The optionality gives the tipper discretion in any specific situation, not an indefinite free ride with no social consequences. The server wouldn't work for $2.13/hr (presumably) without the expectation, so by never tipping the GP is freeloading on the other customers. Likewise there is an expectation of good service from waitstaff, but they're not obligated to give good service. They too have the option of giving better or worse service at their discretion. So if a server wants to give everyone equal service that's their right. But if I want to develop a reputation as a good tipper to get my service prioritized over GP by servers who differentiate then that's ok too, and rational I think.
LukeShu 8y ago
The people you hurt by not tipping aren't the people who set the prices.
- jjuhl 8y ago
  That's simply not my problem. Why should I care? If they are unhappy with their wages they should complain to their employer. It's not my job to fix their wages.
  - laken 8y ago
    Due to how US wage laws work for "service" employees, you _are_ somewhat of an "employer" while they're servicing you. You pay them a tip for their service. If you don't want to tip, you don't get served a sit-down meal. Stiffing is a serious asshole move, and it doesn't contribute anything positive.
    - jjuhl 8y ago
      Luckily I don't care one iota about that. And my bank balance likes me for it. You seem to be obsessed with how other people view your actions. I'm not. Simple as that.
  - pbiggar 8y ago
    > "That's simply not my problem" That's an unfortunate attitude. I thought a lot like you, but when I realized the wage disparity here - I could afford to go eat at these fancy places, which my servers definitely could not - I chose to make it my problem. Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for example, if you can afford to help), you should.
    - Udik 8y ago
      > Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for example, if you can afford to help), you should. The problem with this is that by tipping you simply move the problem of underpaid waiters to the next customer and to the next day. If everyone just stopped tipping, the tips would be included in the prices, everybody would be paying taxes, and the tipping issue would just cease to exist. The prices would stay more or less the same, as those are the prices that people are willing to pay, whether the tip is already included or not.
rayiner 8y ago
I hope people ignore the social custom and spit in your food.
- dwaltrip 8y ago
  I take your point and think it is a worthy one. However, your particular example would be illegal, no? Not just a mere social custom.
pg_bot 8y ago
I can guarantee that you've never worked as a waiter/waitress. This is so fundamentally insulting that I can't believe anyone actually would hold this position. When you sit down at a restaurant you are paying the wait staff to serve you. If I ever saw you a second time, I would insist you pick up your own orders, drinks, and bus your own table you skinflint.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- tk75x 8y ago
  If picking up my own plate/drink and wiping the table down after myself was an option, I would take it every time. I frequently drive to pick up the pizza/takeout I order in order to avoid tipping. In fact, many "fast casual" restaurants operate this way: at Panera Bread, you place an order at the front, get your drink cup, and receive a buzzing tile to notify you when the order is ready. Places like this have no reason to include tips.
  - PascLeRasc 8y ago
    It is an option. It's even a whole hobby called "cooking at home"
happytoexplain 8y ago
I agree with the principle behind your choice, and even consider it laudable. However, in my opinion, your behavior is badly misguided - in fact, I'd characterise it as a naive and childish attack on innocent people. Sorry, I know that's pretty insulting, but it's my best attempt at a full and honest, but measured description of my opinion. Part of why it's so harsh is because, reading your posts, I don't think you suffer from a misunderstanding, but are rather expressing malice that, while justifiable, is being applied in a knowingly untargeted manner.
- jjuhl 8y ago
  Thank you for the straight forward and honest opinion. You are right, I don't suffer from any misunderstanding. I simply don't want to pay more than advertised and I think tipping is just the wrong way to pay for services - that should just be included in the price. And then I guess I'm simply not a very empathetic person and I have no problem with other people considering me a jerk - I simply don't care. And as long as others pay something that keeps prices low for me, I benefit, so although I don't like the system it pays off nicely and I'm not ashamed to exploit that.
  - enoch_r 8y ago
    You say you feel no guilt because you "have no problem with other people considering me a jerk." To me, guilt has little to do with the sense that other people consider me a jerk--guilt is about the knowledge that I've hurt someone. I think it's respectable, even admirable, to not care about what other people think of you. But if you hurt people when it benefits you and you can get away with it, it's not quite sufficient to explain it by saying "I don't care if other people think I'm a jerk." It would be more complete to simply say "I don't care if I act like a jerk."
    - jjuhl 8y ago
      Sure, I don't care about that either.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jessaustin 8y ago
One is reminded of the opening scene of Reservoir Dogs...
eutropia 8y ago
If everyone behaved as you did, then you would get either substantially worse service or substantially more expensive restaurants. Right now you're arbitraging the good will of other people to pay for the service that you're not willing to pay, i.e., freeloading; because you're still benefiting from the current system and not the experiencing other system you'd consider to be "fair".
adrianmonk 8y ago
I'm not a fan of tipping either, but because the convention is clear and essentially universal, the waiter has a completely reasonable expectation that you will tip unless there is a problem. If you go into the situation intending from the beginning not to follow this convention but receiving the benefits of it, then you are not acting in good faith. You are, through nonverbal communication, misleading the waiter. Consent should matter when two parties enter into a transaction, and it should be informed consent. If you think what you're doing right now meets that standard, then next time try telling the waiter at the beginning that there will be no tip, and see if it makes a difference.
nashashmi 8y ago
I knew someone who was a waiter at one time working full time at a restaurant. When he began work, he found some customers would not leave tips. So he would cordially ask the customers if anything was wrong with their service. And inform them that for people in his line of work where they serve their customers, their earnings are mostly based on tips. Minimum wage is different for tip receiving employees, but if the tips do not add up to normal minimum wage, then the employer is required to supplement their paychecks until they hit minimum wage. So if you like the service that the waiter brought you, you got to tip. The money goes to them only. If you get a haircut, then you got to tip if the barber/stylist went a couple of steps further and made sure you got the haircut you like. You got to show your appreciation for workers who went above and beyond their requirements to serve you better.

by jjuhl 8y ago

No guilt. No tip. Never. If they want more than the listed price they should raise the listed price. Social customs/expectations/guilt/whatever be damned. I never tip. Never have, never will.

X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago

That's a bit extreme. I hope you don't eat at sit down restaurants often.

pc86 8y ago
Or the same one more than once. Stiffing waiters in the same establishment more than one is a risky proposition at best.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  That's not stiffing, the price is written on a check, so what you probably mean is "economic transaction". Paying waiters low on the other hand is stiffing.
  - X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
    That's not how all the players view it. Like it or not just because you feel justified in something doesn't mean that others will.
    - wetpaws 8y ago
      When you buy products on Amazon, do you look for more expensive or less expensive listings?
      - X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
        That's a false equivalency.
        wetpaws 8y ago
        How is it different? They are both a group of people providing you with added value for a specific price.
        X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
        The simplest difference is expectation.
jjuhl 8y ago
I do. But I never tip. They get the price they ask, that I can see before I order. That should be enough or they should change their prices/wages so tipping is not necessary. And no, I don't feel the least guilty about that.
- aaaaaaass 8y ago
  Lmao you must be fun at parties
- telchar 8y ago
  If you want to claim to be principled about this then you should inform the waitstaff at the start of the interaction that you don't intend to tip. The price they ask has expectation of tip built in implicitly - failing to disclose that you won't tip is therefore a lie of omission. I hope you're not that sort of person.
  - late2part 8y ago
    2 thoughts. #1 - I feel you are assuming requirements about the optionality of tipping. The gratuity is optional for whatever reason, regardless of social expectations. So in my opinion one can be moral and ethical without disclosing why they don't tip. #2 - I waited tables, and a very good waiter once told me that he gives every table the same service whether they do or don't tip, and no matter how much they tip. I feel many servers lack this mentality; which leads to more people tipping less. When I waited tables, 10% was an okay tip, 15% was stellar. Now it seems like 20% is assumed and folks have a social signalling competition to tip 25-30%. Doesn't make sense.
    - telchar 8y ago
      You're right that the gratuity is optional, but there is still a strong general expectation that most people will tip. The optionality gives the tipper discretion in any specific situation, not an indefinite free ride with no social consequences. The server wouldn't work for $2.13/hr (presumably) without the expectation, so by never tipping the GP is freeloading on the other customers. Likewise there is an expectation of good service from waitstaff, but they're not obligated to give good service. They too have the option of giving better or worse service at their discretion. So if a server wants to give everyone equal service that's their right. But if I want to develop a reputation as a good tipper to get my service prioritized over GP by servers who differentiate then that's ok too, and rational I think.

LukeShu 8y ago

The people you hurt by not tipping aren't the people who set the prices.

jjuhl 8y ago
That's simply not my problem. Why should I care? If they are unhappy with their wages they should complain to their employer. It's not my job to fix their wages.
- laken 8y ago
  Due to how US wage laws work for "service" employees, you _are_ somewhat of an "employer" while they're servicing you. You pay them a tip for their service. If you don't want to tip, you don't get served a sit-down meal. Stiffing is a serious asshole move, and it doesn't contribute anything positive.
  - jjuhl 8y ago
    Luckily I don't care one iota about that. And my bank balance likes me for it. You seem to be obsessed with how other people view your actions. I'm not. Simple as that.
- pbiggar 8y ago
  > "That's simply not my problem" That's an unfortunate attitude. I thought a lot like you, but when I realized the wage disparity here - I could afford to go eat at these fancy places, which my servers definitely could not - I chose to make it my problem. Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for example, if you can afford to help), you should.
  - Udik 8y ago
    > Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for example, if you can afford to help), you should. The problem with this is that by tipping you simply move the problem of underpaid waiters to the next customer and to the next day. If everyone just stopped tipping, the tips would be included in the prices, everybody would be paying taxes, and the tipping issue would just cease to exist. The prices would stay more or less the same, as those are the prices that people are willing to pay, whether the tip is already included or not.

rayiner 8y ago

I hope people ignore the social custom and spit in your food.

dwaltrip 8y ago
I take your point and think it is a worthy one. However, your particular example would be illegal, no? Not just a mere social custom.

pg_bot 8y ago

I can guarantee that you've never worked as a waiter/waitress. This is so fundamentally insulting that I can't believe anyone actually would hold this position. When you sit down at a restaurant you are paying the wait staff to serve you. If I ever saw you a second time, I would insist you pick up your own orders, drinks, and bus your own table you skinflint.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tk75x 8y ago
If picking up my own plate/drink and wiping the table down after myself was an option, I would take it every time. I frequently drive to pick up the pizza/takeout I order in order to avoid tipping. In fact, many "fast casual" restaurants operate this way: at Panera Bread, you place an order at the front, get your drink cup, and receive a buzzing tile to notify you when the order is ready. Places like this have no reason to include tips.
- PascLeRasc 8y ago
  It is an option. It's even a whole hobby called "cooking at home"

happytoexplain 8y ago

I agree with the principle behind your choice, and even consider it laudable. However, in my opinion, your behavior is badly misguided - in fact, I'd characterise it as a naive and childish attack on innocent people. Sorry, I know that's pretty insulting, but it's my best attempt at a full and honest, but measured description of my opinion. Part of why it's so harsh is because, reading your posts, I don't think you suffer from a misunderstanding, but are rather expressing malice that, while justifiable, is being applied in a knowingly untargeted manner.

jjuhl 8y ago
Thank you for the straight forward and honest opinion. You are right, I don't suffer from any misunderstanding. I simply don't want to pay more than advertised and I think tipping is just the wrong way to pay for services - that should just be included in the price. And then I guess I'm simply not a very empathetic person and I have no problem with other people considering me a jerk - I simply don't care. And as long as others pay something that keeps prices low for me, I benefit, so although I don't like the system it pays off nicely and I'm not ashamed to exploit that.
- enoch_r 8y ago
  You say you feel no guilt because you "have no problem with other people considering me a jerk." To me, guilt has little to do with the sense that other people consider me a jerk--guilt is about the knowledge that I've hurt someone. I think it's respectable, even admirable, to not care about what other people think of you. But if you hurt people when it benefits you and you can get away with it, it's not quite sufficient to explain it by saying "I don't care if other people think I'm a jerk." It would be more complete to simply say "I don't care if I act like a jerk."
  - jjuhl 8y ago
    Sure, I don't care about that either.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jessaustin 8y ago

One is reminded of the opening scene of Reservoir Dogs...

eutropia 8y ago

If everyone behaved as you did, then you would get either substantially worse service or substantially more expensive restaurants. Right now you're arbitraging the good will of other people to pay for the service that you're not willing to pay, i.e., freeloading; because you're still benefiting from the current system and not the experiencing other system you'd consider to be "fair".

adrianmonk 8y ago

I'm not a fan of tipping either, but because the convention is clear and essentially universal, the waiter has a completely reasonable expectation that you will tip unless there is a problem. If you go into the situation intending from the beginning not to follow this convention but receiving the benefits of it, then you are not acting in good faith. You are, through nonverbal communication, misleading the waiter. Consent should matter when two parties enter into a transaction, and it should be informed consent. If you think what you're doing right now meets that standard, then next time try telling the waiter at the beginning that there will be no tip, and see if it makes a difference.

nashashmi 8y ago

I knew someone who was a waiter at one time working full time at a restaurant. When he began work, he found some customers would not leave tips. So he would cordially ask the customers if anything was wrong with their service. And inform them that for people in his line of work where they serve their customers, their earnings are mostly based on tips. Minimum wage is different for tip receiving employees, but if the tips do not add up to normal minimum wage, then the employer is required to supplement their paychecks until they hit minimum wage. So if you like the service that the waiter brought you, you got to tip. The money goes to them only. If you get a haircut, then you got to tip if the barber/stylist went a couple of steps further and made sure you got the haircut you like. You got to show your appreciation for workers who went above and beyond their requirements to serve you better.