8 ms·

I don't feel guilt when they swivel that ipad around, more like annoyance. When I'm asked to tip for someone handing me a cup of coffee, I say no tip. We should

I don't feel guilt when they swivel that ipad around, more like annoyance. When I'm asked to tip for someone handing me a cup of coffee, I say no tip. We should really be pushing to get away from this relic of slavery, and don't tip unless it's absolutely clear we need to; i.e. at a sit down restaurant.

ghrifter 8y ago
> relic of slavery ... what? Tipping was something that the patricians/bourgie upper class did to help uplift the waiters/service staff in Europe. It caught on in the USA in the late 1800s and fell out of favor from that upper class in Europe by then. Largely, USA coopted a "noble gesture" from wealthy Europeans and it has persisted ever since for like a century. Anyways, I hate tipping as well.
- smhenderson 8y ago
  I think the parent is referring to this [1] and other articles like it that have surfaced in recent years. I only recently read about it although I can't remember where at the moment. The linked article below is very similar though. It talks about a lot more than tipping in the US having roots tied to slavery but it's mentioned. This is just a snip out of the article, it's a long read but an interesting take on tipping in the US. That's another wrinkle that many people don’t know about, right? Tipping in the United States actually dates back to slavery. The origin of tipping is really the feudal system, it’s this idea of noblesse oblige. But when tipping came to the United States, it had a real racial tinge to it, because, originally, the workers who earned tips were almost exclusively black workers—they were newly freed slaves. There was this massive anti-tipping movement to protest the practice, a resounding populist movement that actually got anti-tipping bills passed in six states across the country, including Washington state and many southern states. What’s interesting is that that movement, the anti-tipping populist one, ending up spreading to Europe and succeeding, because the labor movement picked it up and said ‘we are professionals, and we shouldn’t have to live on tips, because we should be paid by our employers.’ That’s why you see so little tipping in Europe. What we started here spread there and actually killed it at the origin in Europe. We, on the other hand, went in the opposite direction in the states. The restaurant industry, which was hiring newly freed slaves as tipped workers, really wanted the right to hire these workers but pay them next to nothing. So they put forth this idea that they were valueless and really shouldn’t have to be paid by their employers. They essentially made the argument that newly freed slaves should get a zero dollar wage. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dare-you-to-read-this-and-still-feel-ok-about-tipping-in-the-united-states/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dar...
skrebbel 8y ago
How is tipping at a sit down restaurant not a relic of slavery? The idea that restaurant personnel earn so little that they need to live on tips is barbarous.
- sillyquiet 8y ago
  Yet strangely, the loudest voices AGAINST doing away with tipping in favor of a wage are often wait staff themselves.
  - acheron 8y ago
    That's because it would make it harder for them to continue committing tax fraud.
    - dpiers 8y ago
      Part of it is the waitstaff avoiding tax on tips, the other part is that it allows the business to avoid payroll tax on the majority of waitstaff's earnings. In order to get a waiter to an effective $10/hr after-tax income you'd have to pay $15-16/hr versus $2+$8 in tips.
      - beatgammit 8y ago
        That doesn't make any sense. Who's paying 37% taxes as a waiter/waitress? Even before Trump's tax cut, wait staff would still likely be in the 10-15% bracket, and you'd add on 12.5% FICA taxes. And this is after deductions, so effective tax rate will be much lower. Unless your state has 20+% income tax, there's no way a waitress is paying 35%. Corporate taxes don't factor in either because they are only on profit over and above all expenses. Increasing wages of an employee and shifting payment from tips to w2 income merely ensures the employee pays the taxes they should've be paying in the first place and will not increase corporate taxes. If wait staff shifted to higher wages, the employer would increase prices and could note on the menu that tipping is not necessary, but appreciated. If that was the case, I would still tip, but only for above average service.
    - 8y ago
hockeybias 8y ago
Were slaves tipped?
blacksmith_tb 8y ago
Ouch, having worked in cafes and restaurants as an undergrad I pretty much always tip 20%. Is it absurd? Of course, but given how badly most waitstaff are paid, the idea that you will somehow eliminate the practice by stiffing a few barristas seems both sadistic and highly unlikely to change the world. Until robots hand me muffins, I accept it as a tax on eating out.
- dwaltrip 8y ago
  It's only "stiffing" if we start with the assumption they are supposed to be tipped. I'm not well-versed in the history of coffee shops, but it seems to me that it is not a well-established norm -- as compared to bars and restaurants, for example. But I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken about this.
  - SubiculumCode 8y ago
    On the contrary, it was very much the norm, though starbucks killed it.
  - laken 8y ago
    Coffee shops are a unique one, though traditionally you tip the barista in particular, not the cashier. It's been somewhat on its way out culturally over the past few decades in the US however.
    - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
      Baristas were non-existent 30 years ago.
      - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        Espresso been around since 1903?
        simonsarris 8y ago
deelowe 8y ago
What the heck does tipping have to do with slavery?
- kentosi 8y ago
  It originated from the emancipation of slaves, where restaurant owners didn't want to suddenly pay slaves, and so the onus went onto the customers. There are articles on the internet. Just type in "tipping slavery" in google. The Time magazine's article should come up on the first page.
  - MrEfficiency 8y ago
    Don't confuse slavery with the end of slavery. These are different.
jpfed 8y ago
>We should really be pushing But when pushing, it's worth it to be mindful of where you exert your force. The causal flow (from not tipping to wages being raised to the point where tipping is not necessary) is indirect enough that it is uncertain to effect the desired change. Might there be other paths to achieving this goal?

ghrifter 8y ago

> relic of slavery ... what? Tipping was something that the patricians/bourgie upper class did to help uplift the waiters/service staff in Europe. It caught on in the USA in the late 1800s and fell out of favor from that upper class in Europe by then. Largely, USA coopted a "noble gesture" from wealthy Europeans and it has persisted ever since for like a century. Anyways, I hate tipping as well.

smhenderson 8y ago
I think the parent is referring to this [1] and other articles like it that have surfaced in recent years. I only recently read about it although I can't remember where at the moment. The linked article below is very similar though. It talks about a lot more than tipping in the US having roots tied to slavery but it's mentioned. This is just a snip out of the article, it's a long read but an interesting take on tipping in the US. That's another wrinkle that many people don’t know about, right? Tipping in the United States actually dates back to slavery. The origin of tipping is really the feudal system, it’s this idea of noblesse oblige. But when tipping came to the United States, it had a real racial tinge to it, because, originally, the workers who earned tips were almost exclusively black workers—they were newly freed slaves. There was this massive anti-tipping movement to protest the practice, a resounding populist movement that actually got anti-tipping bills passed in six states across the country, including Washington state and many southern states. What’s interesting is that that movement, the anti-tipping populist one, ending up spreading to Europe and succeeding, because the labor movement picked it up and said ‘we are professionals, and we shouldn’t have to live on tips, because we should be paid by our employers.’ That’s why you see so little tipping in Europe. What we started here spread there and actually killed it at the origin in Europe. We, on the other hand, went in the opposite direction in the states. The restaurant industry, which was hiring newly freed slaves as tipped workers, really wanted the right to hire these workers but pay them next to nothing. So they put forth this idea that they were valueless and really shouldn’t have to be paid by their employers. They essentially made the argument that newly freed slaves should get a zero dollar wage. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dare-you-to-read-this-and-still-feel-ok-about-tipping-in-the-united-states/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dar...

skrebbel 8y ago

How is tipping at a sit down restaurant not a relic of slavery? The idea that restaurant personnel earn so little that they need to live on tips is barbarous.

sillyquiet 8y ago
Yet strangely, the loudest voices AGAINST doing away with tipping in favor of a wage are often wait staff themselves.
- acheron 8y ago
  That's because it would make it harder for them to continue committing tax fraud.
  - dpiers 8y ago
    Part of it is the waitstaff avoiding tax on tips, the other part is that it allows the business to avoid payroll tax on the majority of waitstaff's earnings. In order to get a waiter to an effective $10/hr after-tax income you'd have to pay $15-16/hr versus $2+$8 in tips.
    - beatgammit 8y ago
      That doesn't make any sense. Who's paying 37% taxes as a waiter/waitress? Even before Trump's tax cut, wait staff would still likely be in the 10-15% bracket, and you'd add on 12.5% FICA taxes. And this is after deductions, so effective tax rate will be much lower. Unless your state has 20+% income tax, there's no way a waitress is paying 35%. Corporate taxes don't factor in either because they are only on profit over and above all expenses. Increasing wages of an employee and shifting payment from tips to w2 income merely ensures the employee pays the taxes they should've be paying in the first place and will not increase corporate taxes. If wait staff shifted to higher wages, the employer would increase prices and could note on the menu that tipping is not necessary, but appreciated. If that was the case, I would still tip, but only for above average service.
  - 8y ago

hockeybias 8y ago

Were slaves tipped?

blacksmith_tb 8y ago

Ouch, having worked in cafes and restaurants as an undergrad I pretty much always tip 20%. Is it absurd? Of course, but given how badly most waitstaff are paid, the idea that you will somehow eliminate the practice by stiffing a few barristas seems both sadistic and highly unlikely to change the world. Until robots hand me muffins, I accept it as a tax on eating out.

dwaltrip 8y ago
It's only "stiffing" if we start with the assumption they are supposed to be tipped. I'm not well-versed in the history of coffee shops, but it seems to me that it is not a well-established norm -- as compared to bars and restaurants, for example. But I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken about this.
- SubiculumCode 8y ago
  On the contrary, it was very much the norm, though starbucks killed it.
- laken 8y ago
  Coffee shops are a unique one, though traditionally you tip the barista in particular, not the cashier. It's been somewhat on its way out culturally over the past few decades in the US however.
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    Baristas were non-existent 30 years ago.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Espresso been around since 1903?
      - simonsarris 8y ago

deelowe 8y ago

What the heck does tipping have to do with slavery?

kentosi 8y ago
It originated from the emancipation of slaves, where restaurant owners didn't want to suddenly pay slaves, and so the onus went onto the customers. There are articles on the internet. Just type in "tipping slavery" in google. The Time magazine's article should come up on the first page.
- MrEfficiency 8y ago
  Don't confuse slavery with the end of slavery. These are different.

jpfed 8y ago

>We should really be pushing But when pushing, it's worth it to be mindful of where you exert your force. The causal flow (from not tipping to wages being raised to the point where tipping is not necessary) is indirect enough that it is uncertain to effect the desired change. Might there be other paths to achieving this goal?