5 ms·

This is a great lesson in how we tend not to notice the effect of these services paid for with our tax dollars... until they're missing.

romed 8y ago
The people did not vote down the library tax because they were unaware of the library. They voted it down because they did not value the library. I think it's great that the townspeople who do value libraries are telling the outsiders to fuck right off. People in American cities and towns have been subsidizing their exurban and rural neighbors for many decades, while those people have systematically and intentionally undermined the very cities and towns that benefit them. At some point the proponents of civilization have to draw a line.
jimmaswell 8y ago
Libraries served a very important purpose, but nowadays with the proliferation of computers/smartphones and all literary classics, scientific information, etc. being freely available online, physical libraries feel like less of a necessity. They can serve as hubs for other community activities, but those can just as easily be held elsewhere. Only real use I've had for one in the past years is the odd time I had to print or fax something. Maybe libraries should eventually be downsized to simple community cybercafes with links on the desktop to some of these resources and a printer/fax machine.
- magduf 8y ago
  That's largely what a lot of modern town libraries are now. They have a bunch of computers for people who don't own their own, and a bunch of books that they've had for decades.
- nck4222 8y ago
  Ah, the old "I've don't need the service therefore no one does" argument. It's obvious you don't use libraries, because you left out a couple dozen other services they provide that are not easily replaced. I'm also not sure how a community center is supposed to be easily replaced without tax revenue. While the "libraries are outdated" line is oft-repeated, it's still inaccurate. Libraries provide large economic impacts, on top of less easy to measure things like being community centers. Here's one article about a study that shows for every $1 in tax put towards a library, it generates anywhere from $2.50-$5.00+ in economic benefit, depending on how you measure it: https://www.toledoblade.com/local/2016/04/28/Toledo-Lucas-County-Public-Library-gives-2-74-value-per-tax-dollar.html?abnpageversion=evoke https://www.toledoblade.com/local/2016/04/28/Toledo-Lucas-Co... If you google for more, you'll find a dozen other examples.
  - jimmaswell 8y ago
    >I'm also not sure how a community center is supposed to be easily replaced without tax revenue. Any of the various other places that happen to be around where you can congregate, like a park with a gazebo. The value of publicly accessible computers and printers is obvious, I'm just not so sure about all the other things that a library does. I'm curious exactly how this study quantifies all this.
    - mbreese 8y ago
      In Oregon? A gazebo? In the winter?
  - dantheman 8y ago
    All of those things could perhaps done even better if they weren't pretending books was still their main service. Perhaps an office in city hall could have computer 24/7 or other things. I like libraries - but they shouldn't be welfare/job centers -- we should build institutions that specialize in that and can be evaluated on their effectiveness.
    - dlp211 8y ago
      This is an example of perfect being the enemy of good.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Think of them from the perspective of others too though. Where does the person who can’t afford internet get a connection for free? Where does the supply of books for children come from? They can memorise several in a day easily. Have a look at the people who are there working or doing homework. It’s quiet, safe and warm. As much as a screen is easy, a physical book is still nicer to read from for many people too.
- romed 8y ago
  According to Pew in 2016 half of adults reported using a public library in the last 12 months. The annual report "Public Libraries in the United States" estimates 4.5 library visits per capita in 2015. Libraries are one of the most-used services.
- clintonb 8y ago
  I wouldn't discount libraries so quickly. There are still some in our society without smartphones and computers. There are also those who simply cannot afford books. Local libraries are a resource for these families. Additionally, some libraries have experts on staff who can help with research in areas of genealogy and history.
- vkou 8y ago
  > but nowadays with the proliferation of computers/smartphones and all literary classics, scientific information, etc. being freely available online The problem is, all this stuff isn't freely available online. Yes, there is enough online information online to put together a 6th grade essay on the Battle of Gettysburg. But if you actually want a more-then-superficial understanding of a subject, you will, at some point, hit the shelves, and crack open a dozen books. The classics may be freely out of copyright, but books that analyse them aren't. Most of the literature of the 20th century is still under copyright. There are thousands of free online courses, each of which would cover ~100 pages in a book. Yet, there are over a hundred million published books. Many of them are out of date, or dreck. And many of them contain information that you won't find on the internet - for any price, and definitely not 'free'. You will find many of them at your library, though (Or available through inter-library loans). Another thing that you will find at your library is a librarian, who can help you figure out what you are should be looking for. Google won't do this for you. Just because you can, in five seconds, find a half-baked, incomplete blog post tutorial on how to ship HelloWorld in the flavor-of-the-week-crap.js framework, doesn't mean that a library is useless in 2018.
  - jimmaswell 8y ago
    I've never had to use a physical book for any of the papers I got an A on in college, except in the few cases an overzealous English professor made it part of the requirements that you cite a physical book, in which case I had to find some token fact in one just to satisfy it. In addition to all the great content you can find free online, libraries get free access to EBSCO databases. I've also never needed the help of a librarian, ever. Having the old books around will remain useful only up until the point we find a way to fully digitize all of it and make "borrowing" solutions more widespread/work around the copyright issues. For now for 99% of cases you don't need a physical book.
    - geggam 8y ago
      I like my ereader. I can carry a thousand books and not break a sweat. Unfortunately my ereader doesnt provide the community with a quiet place for the less fortunate or a way to read those digitized books you have. A library is not just a place of books, it is a place of learning for those who arent in college who like to learn on their own .... not to get an A.
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  I live between Palo Alto and Mountain View, and parking lot for the local library closest to me is always nearly full from 10-5, I can imagine that if there is this high of a demand for public libraries in Silicon Valley, there might be demand in other areas of the country.
  - gamechangr 8y ago
    Well let's look at that... Palo Alto/MV are considered one of the thought capitals of America, so that's not a clear correlation. If Boston's library's are full, I'm sure Detroit's library would be too. I wouldn't think that Boston/Manhattan/Palo Alto library use would have any correlation to half of America. Also, anyplace where rent ranges are higher free study space is more valuable.
    - stevenwoo 8y ago
      This survey from 2016 says the non library users are the outlier among those over 18 by a wide margin. I guess this could be biased by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and whoever else funds the Pew Charitable Trust, though it is non partisan by charter. http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/09/09/a-portrait-of-those-who-have-never-been-to-libraries/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/09/09/a-portrait-of-those-wh...

romed 8y ago

The people did not vote down the library tax because they were unaware of the library. They voted it down because they did not value the library. I think it's great that the townspeople who do value libraries are telling the outsiders to fuck right off. People in American cities and towns have been subsidizing their exurban and rural neighbors for many decades, while those people have systematically and intentionally undermined the very cities and towns that benefit them. At some point the proponents of civilization have to draw a line.

jimmaswell 8y ago

Libraries served a very important purpose, but nowadays with the proliferation of computers/smartphones and all literary classics, scientific information, etc. being freely available online, physical libraries feel like less of a necessity. They can serve as hubs for other community activities, but those can just as easily be held elsewhere. Only real use I've had for one in the past years is the odd time I had to print or fax something. Maybe libraries should eventually be downsized to simple community cybercafes with links on the desktop to some of these resources and a printer/fax machine.

magduf 8y ago
That's largely what a lot of modern town libraries are now. They have a bunch of computers for people who don't own their own, and a bunch of books that they've had for decades.
nck4222 8y ago
Ah, the old "I've don't need the service therefore no one does" argument. It's obvious you don't use libraries, because you left out a couple dozen other services they provide that are not easily replaced. I'm also not sure how a community center is supposed to be easily replaced without tax revenue. While the "libraries are outdated" line is oft-repeated, it's still inaccurate. Libraries provide large economic impacts, on top of less easy to measure things like being community centers. Here's one article about a study that shows for every $1 in tax put towards a library, it generates anywhere from $2.50-$5.00+ in economic benefit, depending on how you measure it: https://www.toledoblade.com/local/2016/04/28/Toledo-Lucas-County-Public-Library-gives-2-74-value-per-tax-dollar.html?abnpageversion=evoke https://www.toledoblade.com/local/2016/04/28/Toledo-Lucas-Co... If you google for more, you'll find a dozen other examples.
- jimmaswell 8y ago
  >I'm also not sure how a community center is supposed to be easily replaced without tax revenue. Any of the various other places that happen to be around where you can congregate, like a park with a gazebo. The value of publicly accessible computers and printers is obvious, I'm just not so sure about all the other things that a library does. I'm curious exactly how this study quantifies all this.
  - mbreese 8y ago
    In Oregon? A gazebo? In the winter?
- dantheman 8y ago
  All of those things could perhaps done even better if they weren't pretending books was still their main service. Perhaps an office in city hall could have computer 24/7 or other things. I like libraries - but they shouldn't be welfare/job centers -- we should build institutions that specialize in that and can be evaluated on their effectiveness.
  - dlp211 8y ago
    This is an example of perfect being the enemy of good.
lostlogin 8y ago
Think of them from the perspective of others too though. Where does the person who can’t afford internet get a connection for free? Where does the supply of books for children come from? They can memorise several in a day easily. Have a look at the people who are there working or doing homework. It’s quiet, safe and warm. As much as a screen is easy, a physical book is still nicer to read from for many people too.
romed 8y ago
According to Pew in 2016 half of adults reported using a public library in the last 12 months. The annual report "Public Libraries in the United States" estimates 4.5 library visits per capita in 2015. Libraries are one of the most-used services.
clintonb 8y ago
I wouldn't discount libraries so quickly. There are still some in our society without smartphones and computers. There are also those who simply cannot afford books. Local libraries are a resource for these families. Additionally, some libraries have experts on staff who can help with research in areas of genealogy and history.
vkou 8y ago
> but nowadays with the proliferation of computers/smartphones and all literary classics, scientific information, etc. being freely available online The problem is, all this stuff isn't freely available online. Yes, there is enough online information online to put together a 6th grade essay on the Battle of Gettysburg. But if you actually want a more-then-superficial understanding of a subject, you will, at some point, hit the shelves, and crack open a dozen books. The classics may be freely out of copyright, but books that analyse them aren't. Most of the literature of the 20th century is still under copyright. There are thousands of free online courses, each of which would cover ~100 pages in a book. Yet, there are over a hundred million published books. Many of them are out of date, or dreck. And many of them contain information that you won't find on the internet - for any price, and definitely not 'free'. You will find many of them at your library, though (Or available through inter-library loans). Another thing that you will find at your library is a librarian, who can help you figure out what you are should be looking for. Google won't do this for you. Just because you can, in five seconds, find a half-baked, incomplete blog post tutorial on how to ship HelloWorld in the flavor-of-the-week-crap.js framework, doesn't mean that a library is useless in 2018.
- jimmaswell 8y ago
  I've never had to use a physical book for any of the papers I got an A on in college, except in the few cases an overzealous English professor made it part of the requirements that you cite a physical book, in which case I had to find some token fact in one just to satisfy it. In addition to all the great content you can find free online, libraries get free access to EBSCO databases. I've also never needed the help of a librarian, ever. Having the old books around will remain useful only up until the point we find a way to fully digitize all of it and make "borrowing" solutions more widespread/work around the copyright issues. For now for 99% of cases you don't need a physical book.
  - geggam 8y ago
    I like my ereader. I can carry a thousand books and not break a sweat. Unfortunately my ereader doesnt provide the community with a quiet place for the less fortunate or a way to read those digitized books you have. A library is not just a place of books, it is a place of learning for those who arent in college who like to learn on their own .... not to get an A.
stevenwoo 8y ago
I live between Palo Alto and Mountain View, and parking lot for the local library closest to me is always nearly full from 10-5, I can imagine that if there is this high of a demand for public libraries in Silicon Valley, there might be demand in other areas of the country.
- gamechangr 8y ago
  Well let's look at that... Palo Alto/MV are considered one of the thought capitals of America, so that's not a clear correlation. If Boston's library's are full, I'm sure Detroit's library would be too. I wouldn't think that Boston/Manhattan/Palo Alto library use would have any correlation to half of America. Also, anyplace where rent ranges are higher free study space is more valuable.
  - stevenwoo 8y ago
    This survey from 2016 says the non library users are the outlier among those over 18 by a wide margin. I guess this could be biased by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and whoever else funds the Pew Charitable Trust, though it is non partisan by charter. http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/09/09/a-portrait-of-those-who-have-never-been-to-libraries/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/09/09/a-portrait-of-those-wh...