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Pico-8 was my son's very first introduction to programming. He does much more with the integrated sprite editor and sfx/music editors than he does with actual c

by jpfed 8y ago

Pico-8 was my son's very first introduction to programming. He does much more with the integrated sprite editor and sfx/music editors than he does with actual coding. I would like to get him interested in TIC-80 as a replacement. Key weaknesses of Pico-8 for kids learning to program: 1. The editor runs at the same resolution that the games do. Maybe this is because they didn't want to make their VM flexible enough to deal with multiple resolutions, or they just wanted to make the illusion that the Pico-8 is its own machine very consistent, but the end result is still a painful code editing experience. When I make example programs for my kids, I need to compromise between descriptive variable names and indenting code blocks. 2. Deviations from the standard lua API/libraries mean that normal learning resources like PIL have to be interpreted with an asterisk. 3. This is a minor thing, but the fixed palette is annoying. In graphical terms, Pico-8 lies roughly between the Atari 2600, 7800, and NES, but all of those systems handled colors more flexibly. 4. Splore allows children to find games that are not appropriate for their age. It's just not designed for kids and parents. My son found a game featuring smoking and thought it looked SO COOL (this was easy to disabuse him of). He also found a game that puts you in the role of a cyberbully, and the subtle psychological effects of that sort of "edgy" game aren't as easily undone with a single conversation. It is possible to mitigate this by putting whitelisted carts into the bbs carts folder and then making that folder read-only. TIC-80 improves on the first three points. The editor is still running at the same resolution as the games, but uses a higher resolution (and the editor can optionally use a thinner font). The lua implementation is much more standard. And the palette can be changed (even per-scanline, I think). The music editor lets you draw your own waveforms, but in other respects is less intuitive than Pico-8's. (I haven't looked at TIC-80's cart browser so I can't comment on it.)

Impossible 8y ago
All of these are explicit design choices, for example a fixed palette is important to give games a "Pico-8" look and also reduce decisions regarding color choice. I suggest you watch Joseph White's practice talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jfTIWosBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jfTIWosBw) if you're curious about design decisions that guided Pico-8. Multiple resolutions would absolutely break the "Fantasy console" feel of Pico-8, even though I understand why programmers universally hate that. To be fair a lot of people do code editing outside of the Pico-8 editor. #4 is an interesting point. The trick here is that different parents have different ideas of what is and isn't appropriate, and of course different kids will have different responses. It seems like the answer is to maybe have a version of Pico-8 that removes splore and expands the demo carts with some universally safe, popular titles. TIC-80 is cool btw and might be a better learning environment for kids. I don't like it (or any of the other fantasy console\pico-8 clones) quite as much as Pico-8 because they remove constraints, making them feel more like generic game editors and less like imaginary retro computers.
- jpfed 8y ago
  >All of these are explicit design choices, for example a fixed palette is important to give games a "Pico-8" look and also reduce decisions regarding color choice. Indeed, which is why they won't change, which is why (for me) an alternative like TIC-80 is preferable to waiting around for Pico-8 to become what I wish it were. The virtual console space is tantalizing, but the culture around it has different tastes from mine. For example, >I don't like it (or any of the other fantasy console\pico-8 clones) quite as much as Pico-8 because they remove constraints This is a pretty common sentiment on the Pico-8 boards; I understand there are people looking for a certain aesthetic thrill that comes from working within the constraints to make something unexpectedly cool. And yes, when I have time, I would like to make e.g. a metroidvania that uses individual tiles to encode 4x4 chunks of tiles to allow for a big-ass map. It just so happens that those constraints aren't necessary for, and sometimes are in tension with, the goals of a good first-coding-experience learning environment. I also totally understand why virtual consoles almost all use BASIC or lua, but (for me, not for my kids) I wish there were an option with static types. The combination of not being able to see much code on the screen at once plus no static type checking is pretty uncomfortable for me.
  - Impossible 8y ago
    > I also totally understand why virtual consoles almost all use BASIC or lua, but (for me, not for my kids) I wish there were an option with static types. The combination of not being able to see much code on the screen at once plus no static type checking is pretty uncomfortable for me At some point the question becomes why not just use Unity, BFXR, Bosca Ceoil and ASE Sprite if you want no constraints and better tools with a similar Pico-8-ish aesthetic? That question is outside of the scope of the original post, but as I piece together your ideal fantasy console, it seems like not really a fantasy console but a simple general purpose game IDE with a statically typed language. Edit: Btw, if what you want is a simple general purpose game IDE with a statically typed language that is somewhere in-between Unity and Pico-8 I suggest you make it or at least spec out your needs more formally! I'm definitely a fan of more people making game creation tools (and software development tools in general) that fit their needs\use cases.

by jpfed 8y ago

Impossible 8y ago

All of these are explicit design choices, for example a fixed palette is important to give games a "Pico-8" look and also reduce decisions regarding color choice. I suggest you watch Joseph White's practice talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jfTIWosBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jfTIWosBw) if you're curious about design decisions that guided Pico-8. Multiple resolutions would absolutely break the "Fantasy console" feel of Pico-8, even though I understand why programmers universally hate that. To be fair a lot of people do code editing outside of the Pico-8 editor. #4 is an interesting point. The trick here is that different parents have different ideas of what is and isn't appropriate, and of course different kids will have different responses. It seems like the answer is to maybe have a version of Pico-8 that removes splore and expands the demo carts with some universally safe, popular titles. TIC-80 is cool btw and might be a better learning environment for kids. I don't like it (or any of the other fantasy console\pico-8 clones) quite as much as Pico-8 because they remove constraints, making them feel more like generic game editors and less like imaginary retro computers.

jpfed 8y ago
>All of these are explicit design choices, for example a fixed palette is important to give games a "Pico-8" look and also reduce decisions regarding color choice. Indeed, which is why they won't change, which is why (for me) an alternative like TIC-80 is preferable to waiting around for Pico-8 to become what I wish it were. The virtual console space is tantalizing, but the culture around it has different tastes from mine. For example, >I don't like it (or any of the other fantasy console\pico-8 clones) quite as much as Pico-8 because they remove constraints This is a pretty common sentiment on the Pico-8 boards; I understand there are people looking for a certain aesthetic thrill that comes from working within the constraints to make something unexpectedly cool. And yes, when I have time, I would like to make e.g. a metroidvania that uses individual tiles to encode 4x4 chunks of tiles to allow for a big-ass map. It just so happens that those constraints aren't necessary for, and sometimes are in tension with, the goals of a good first-coding-experience learning environment. I also totally understand why virtual consoles almost all use BASIC or lua, but (for me, not for my kids) I wish there were an option with static types. The combination of not being able to see much code on the screen at once plus no static type checking is pretty uncomfortable for me.
- Impossible 8y ago
  > I also totally understand why virtual consoles almost all use BASIC or lua, but (for me, not for my kids) I wish there were an option with static types. The combination of not being able to see much code on the screen at once plus no static type checking is pretty uncomfortable for me At some point the question becomes why not just use Unity, BFXR, Bosca Ceoil and ASE Sprite if you want no constraints and better tools with a similar Pico-8-ish aesthetic? That question is outside of the scope of the original post, but as I piece together your ideal fantasy console, it seems like not really a fantasy console but a simple general purpose game IDE with a statically typed language. Edit: Btw, if what you want is a simple general purpose game IDE with a statically typed language that is somewhere in-between Unity and Pico-8 I suggest you make it or at least spec out your needs more formally! I'm definitely a fan of more people making game creation tools (and software development tools in general) that fit their needs\use cases.