8 ms·

The main reasons to get a degree are: -. To show you can complete a big, multi year project that’s full of doing stuff you don’t like -. To get past HR screen

by orev 8y ago

The main reasons to get a degree are: -. To show you can complete a big, multi year project that’s full of doing stuff you don’t like -. To get past HR screenings -. If you ever want a chance to reach Executive level jobs, you need to have a degree, for the perception of nothing else. This debate has been going on for a long time, despite this being presented as a recent thing, and it always comes down to those things. While the tech-minded here might want to see it from a strictly educational standpoint, these are human/societal reasons that are quite important.

Aloha 8y ago
You can get past HR screening without a degree, experience still often matters more - and in my opinion, a 22-23 year old proving they can do multi year projects is of dubious value - what it is useful for is showing that you know how to learn. I have no degree, but have a boat load of experience in my chosen field, with a couple of notable exceptions, this alone is enough to get my foot in the door. The notable exceptions are government roles, and government contracts with private companies, they want someone who has a degree in any engineering discipline.
- flatline 8y ago
  I never had trouble finding tech work without a degree. I did however find the door to more interesting jobs was generally closed without one, and that door opened after I went back to school and finished a BS.
  - geggam 8y ago
    I find the doors which are closed by not having a degree to be ones I probably wouldn't have enjoyed. I have no degree and have had Phd's reporting to me, in Silicon Valley.
    - mywittyname 8y ago
      Some prefer to be the PhDs.
- notfromhere 8y ago
  Sure, but it'll be harder. Most places have a stack of resumes for positions, guess who gets weeded out first?
briandear 8y ago
Those human societal reasons need to change.
- pc86 8y ago
  Why? I don't disagree, but if you're saying a change needs to be made I think the onus on you is to propose what the change should be and why it would be beneficial overall.
mental1896 8y ago
I don't have a degree and I'm 10+ years deep into my career. What has started to stand out for me in recent years is that there are holes in my experience that my college-educated peers don't have to deal with. Granted I never had to deal with student loans so I guess there's a tradeoff. But the problem with these education "holes" is that they hit you right out of left field when you least expect it.
- pc86 8y ago
  Could you provide some examples?
  - madeuptempacct 8y ago
    I can provide some examples for him as a self-educated dev: * What is big O * What is value type vs pointer/reference * How does the internet work * Binary search trees, tries, graphs - u wut m8 (Thankfully, there's this: https://medium.com/basecs/archive/2017/01 https://medium.com/basecs/archive/2017/01) * Basic cryptography, hashing, etc * DNS, IPs, HTTP, etc * TCP, UDP, etc (I still don't know these) * Stack, heap, queue, malloc (Again, very little exposure to this without learning a low level language.) * How modern computers work * Logic gates, clocks, memory, (actual) binary math * Wifi basics (actual physical data transmission) * Linux I can go on and on and on, but these are things you don't pick up at work unless you go out of your way to learn how they work. Regarding the parent post - I have a very generous training budget. And guess where I will never spend it? At the best University in my state. I got a degree in something other than Comp Sci, and 95% of the classes were useless and way-too-drawn-out. So, you might not be as behind as you think. A pretty-smart co-worker of mine with a Comp Sci degree said he didn't figure out the point of object oriented programming until he got his first Java job. This is only related to other comments in this thread, but I do feel that formal education is oversold, and particularly to people who are from poor families with no guidance trying to have a shot at life.
    - wonderwonder 8y ago
      I can second this. Self taught programmer and I am weak in all of the above areas. My math skills (only high school math) are also especially weak which has really bitten me in graphics based jobs (simulation) where I have had to calculate view rotations and similar in 3d. I am lucky enough to have made it to the 6 figure club but I probably could have been here a decade ago with the right education. Also imposter syndrome has been a major limiter at times.
TallGuyShort 8y ago
Thinking back to group projects, I can honestly say that most of the college graduates whose educations I am most acquainted with cannot complete moderately sized semester-long projects that they don't like without substantial outside help and constant prodding.
- orev 8y ago
  The project I’m talking about is the degree itself, not group projects in any particular class.
emddudley 8y ago
Am I the only one around here who actually learned things in college? I would certainly not be as good at my job nor as aware of things outside my primary skill had I not gone to college.
neuromantik8086 8y ago
I'd add: -. To easily identify a group of friends/peers with common interests and culture. Probably not worth the egregiously high tuitions now, but I've talked with several other alums from my college and we agree that easily the greatest benefit from college has been networking-related / social ties. That's honestly probably the biggest reason for why people are so set on sending their kids to elite institutions- in many cases the pedagogy might not necessarily be better than cheaper alternatives (e.g., state schools), but there's a higher likelihood of rubbing shoulders with other influential characters.
- OldJackHinson 8y ago
  Likewise, I would suggest that it's more valuable for someone coming from a lower income/social status background to go to a good school than for someone who comes from higher - those people either already know influential people, or have the financial resources necessary to do things like attend conferences or just up and move to where those people are.
  - neuromantik8086 8y ago
    I'd agree with that. Whenever people cite Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg as college dropout successes, they tend to overlook the substantial cultural and social capital these leaders had already accrued as students at Lakeside, Homestead, and Phillips Exeter.
hodgesrm 8y ago
Your points are important but at the same time it's inaccurate to discount the educational component. Good universities instill a sense of intellectual rigor in their students that carries across many fields--reading critically, expressing arguments clearly, and perhaps most of understanding what "good enough" really means when working on solutions to difficult problems.
- orev 8y ago
  I’m not trying to discount the educational component, just trying to blunt the inevitable replies about how you can learn the same material on your own. The point I’m making is that there are other benefits outside of the education that you can’t do on your own.
lordCarbonFiber 8y ago
You missed the biggest reason: - Networking with people all assumed to be at or above a bar dictated by the college acceptance committee. This is point is huge, given how spread out the US is many students may have never had that kind of opportunity. The things you learn from your peers, all naturally aligned in the community are orders of magnitude more than what you learn in class and can't easily be replaced by online resources.
curun1r 8y ago
Every reason you cited can be had by starting in community college. If I were advising a graduating senior today, I'd advise them to consider a gap year and to go the community college route. You can still get a degree from the most prestigious state schools while paying a small fraction of what you'd otherwise pay for your first two years of school. Since price is becoming an issue, prioritize junior/senior years since those result in the degree and look to economize for freshman/sophomore.

by orev 8y ago

Aloha 8y ago

You can get past HR screening without a degree, experience still often matters more - and in my opinion, a 22-23 year old proving they can do multi year projects is of dubious value - what it is useful for is showing that you know how to learn. I have no degree, but have a boat load of experience in my chosen field, with a couple of notable exceptions, this alone is enough to get my foot in the door. The notable exceptions are government roles, and government contracts with private companies, they want someone who has a degree in any engineering discipline.

flatline 8y ago
I never had trouble finding tech work without a degree. I did however find the door to more interesting jobs was generally closed without one, and that door opened after I went back to school and finished a BS.
- geggam 8y ago
  I find the doors which are closed by not having a degree to be ones I probably wouldn't have enjoyed. I have no degree and have had Phd's reporting to me, in Silicon Valley.
  - mywittyname 8y ago
    Some prefer to be the PhDs.
notfromhere 8y ago
Sure, but it'll be harder. Most places have a stack of resumes for positions, guess who gets weeded out first?

briandear 8y ago

Those human societal reasons need to change.

pc86 8y ago
Why? I don't disagree, but if you're saying a change needs to be made I think the onus on you is to propose what the change should be and why it would be beneficial overall.

mental1896 8y ago

I don't have a degree and I'm 10+ years deep into my career. What has started to stand out for me in recent years is that there are holes in my experience that my college-educated peers don't have to deal with. Granted I never had to deal with student loans so I guess there's a tradeoff. But the problem with these education "holes" is that they hit you right out of left field when you least expect it.

pc86 8y ago
Could you provide some examples?
- madeuptempacct 8y ago
  I can provide some examples for him as a self-educated dev: * What is big O * What is value type vs pointer/reference * How does the internet work * Binary search trees, tries, graphs - u wut m8 (Thankfully, there's this: https://medium.com/basecs/archive/2017/01 https://medium.com/basecs/archive/2017/01) * Basic cryptography, hashing, etc * DNS, IPs, HTTP, etc * TCP, UDP, etc (I still don't know these) * Stack, heap, queue, malloc (Again, very little exposure to this without learning a low level language.) * How modern computers work * Logic gates, clocks, memory, (actual) binary math * Wifi basics (actual physical data transmission) * Linux I can go on and on and on, but these are things you don't pick up at work unless you go out of your way to learn how they work. Regarding the parent post - I have a very generous training budget. And guess where I will never spend it? At the best University in my state. I got a degree in something other than Comp Sci, and 95% of the classes were useless and way-too-drawn-out. So, you might not be as behind as you think. A pretty-smart co-worker of mine with a Comp Sci degree said he didn't figure out the point of object oriented programming until he got his first Java job. This is only related to other comments in this thread, but I do feel that formal education is oversold, and particularly to people who are from poor families with no guidance trying to have a shot at life.
  - wonderwonder 8y ago
    I can second this. Self taught programmer and I am weak in all of the above areas. My math skills (only high school math) are also especially weak which has really bitten me in graphics based jobs (simulation) where I have had to calculate view rotations and similar in 3d. I am lucky enough to have made it to the 6 figure club but I probably could have been here a decade ago with the right education. Also imposter syndrome has been a major limiter at times.

TallGuyShort 8y ago

Thinking back to group projects, I can honestly say that most of the college graduates whose educations I am most acquainted with cannot complete moderately sized semester-long projects that they don't like without substantial outside help and constant prodding.

orev 8y ago
The project I’m talking about is the degree itself, not group projects in any particular class.

emddudley 8y ago

Am I the only one around here who actually learned things in college? I would certainly not be as good at my job nor as aware of things outside my primary skill had I not gone to college.

neuromantik8086 8y ago

I'd add: -. To easily identify a group of friends/peers with common interests and culture. Probably not worth the egregiously high tuitions now, but I've talked with several other alums from my college and we agree that easily the greatest benefit from college has been networking-related / social ties. That's honestly probably the biggest reason for why people are so set on sending their kids to elite institutions- in many cases the pedagogy might not necessarily be better than cheaper alternatives (e.g., state schools), but there's a higher likelihood of rubbing shoulders with other influential characters.

OldJackHinson 8y ago
Likewise, I would suggest that it's more valuable for someone coming from a lower income/social status background to go to a good school than for someone who comes from higher - those people either already know influential people, or have the financial resources necessary to do things like attend conferences or just up and move to where those people are.
- neuromantik8086 8y ago
  I'd agree with that. Whenever people cite Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg as college dropout successes, they tend to overlook the substantial cultural and social capital these leaders had already accrued as students at Lakeside, Homestead, and Phillips Exeter.

hodgesrm 8y ago

Your points are important but at the same time it's inaccurate to discount the educational component. Good universities instill a sense of intellectual rigor in their students that carries across many fields--reading critically, expressing arguments clearly, and perhaps most of understanding what "good enough" really means when working on solutions to difficult problems.

orev 8y ago
I’m not trying to discount the educational component, just trying to blunt the inevitable replies about how you can learn the same material on your own. The point I’m making is that there are other benefits outside of the education that you can’t do on your own.

lordCarbonFiber 8y ago

You missed the biggest reason: - Networking with people all assumed to be at or above a bar dictated by the college acceptance committee. This is point is huge, given how spread out the US is many students may have never had that kind of opportunity. The things you learn from your peers, all naturally aligned in the community are orders of magnitude more than what you learn in class and can't easily be replaced by online resources.

curun1r 8y ago

Every reason you cited can be had by starting in community college. If I were advising a graduating senior today, I'd advise them to consider a gap year and to go the community college route. You can still get a degree from the most prestigious state schools while paying a small fraction of what you'd otherwise pay for your first two years of school. Since price is becoming an issue, prioritize junior/senior years since those result in the degree and look to economize for freshman/sophomore.