4 ms·

Looking at the cost of hiring, it's crazy to see that the employee only gets ~50% (or even less as the salary grows) than what the employer pays. This makes it

Looking at the cost of hiring, it's crazy to see that the employee only gets ~50% (or even less as the salary grows) than what the employer pays. This makes it very expensive for an employer to pay their employees well, and explains very well why salaries are so low in France. Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already.

realusername 8y ago
That's because in France you get indirect salary as well whereas in other countries you have to pay some of those things from the indirect salary from your own pocket. To compare to a US salary, I would personally add 30 to 40% to those raw figures to reflect external costs. > Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already. No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees where you can fire at will and then once it's over, you can still do it but you need to motivate your decision & respect the process.
- baud147258 8y ago
  > No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism.
  - realusername 8y ago
    > The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. Yes exactly, that's pretty fair, if the employer can fire at-will, the employee can leave quickly as well, it's flexibility on both sides. > In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism. Yes indeed that's exactly that.
    - jypepin 8y ago
      rupture conventionnelle is very expensive :)
      - jpic 8y ago
        i thought the minimum was the equivalent of a month of gross salary
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  There is no concept of indirect salary I am aware of. Do you mean that medical insurance is paid straight out of your salary to the state? This is a huge benefit to US, but only US - all european countries apart from Switzerland have this, and many other palces around the world too. Or you mean social insurance? Same story, you pay it from the money your employer pays you, its just that you don't do it by yourself - company ha to do it for you by law.
  - realusername 8y ago
    They also created a calculator if you speak French: https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/. So the employer also pays the retirement, health insurance, unemployment benefits, work accidents and family benefits.
    - saiya-jin 8y ago
      It's a big fat lie that employer pays anything - employee pays it all, from money employer is willing to pay him/her for work done. No matter how we wrap the facts, this won't change. It doesn't matter that its taken away before it reaches your account. I understand the motivation - people would be properly pissed off if they realized state is taking 50-70% of their income prior to letting them get the rest. And then they are taxed more with VAT, housing, fuel etc. Of course there are services given back, in some cases very substantial and helpful (and in some cases very wasteful and useless), but never forget the fact that you pay for it with most of your income, like it or not.
- ldng 8y ago
  > you need to motivate your decision & respect the process. And still you can fire someone. And now, with recent reforms, you know exactly how much it will cost since it is a fixed grid.
- jypepin 8y ago
  never heard of indirect salary before, can you explain what that is?
  - jpic 8y ago
    maybe they mean social rights

realusername 8y ago

That's because in France you get indirect salary as well whereas in other countries you have to pay some of those things from the indirect salary from your own pocket. To compare to a US salary, I would personally add 30 to 40% to those raw figures to reflect external costs. > Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already. No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees where you can fire at will and then once it's over, you can still do it but you need to motivate your decision & respect the process.

baud147258 8y ago
> No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism.
- realusername 8y ago
  > The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. Yes exactly, that's pretty fair, if the employer can fire at-will, the employee can leave quickly as well, it's flexibility on both sides. > In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism. Yes indeed that's exactly that.
  - jypepin 8y ago
    rupture conventionnelle is very expensive :)
    - jpic 8y ago
      i thought the minimum was the equivalent of a month of gross salary
saiya-jin 8y ago
There is no concept of indirect salary I am aware of. Do you mean that medical insurance is paid straight out of your salary to the state? This is a huge benefit to US, but only US - all european countries apart from Switzerland have this, and many other palces around the world too. Or you mean social insurance? Same story, you pay it from the money your employer pays you, its just that you don't do it by yourself - company ha to do it for you by law.
- realusername 8y ago
  They also created a calculator if you speak French: https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/. So the employer also pays the retirement, health insurance, unemployment benefits, work accidents and family benefits.
  - saiya-jin 8y ago
    It's a big fat lie that employer pays anything - employee pays it all, from money employer is willing to pay him/her for work done. No matter how we wrap the facts, this won't change. It doesn't matter that its taken away before it reaches your account. I understand the motivation - people would be properly pissed off if they realized state is taking 50-70% of their income prior to letting them get the rest. And then they are taxed more with VAT, housing, fuel etc. Of course there are services given back, in some cases very substantial and helpful (and in some cases very wasteful and useless), but never forget the fact that you pay for it with most of your income, like it or not.
ldng 8y ago
> you need to motivate your decision & respect the process. And still you can fire someone. And now, with recent reforms, you know exactly how much it will cost since it is a fixed grid.
jypepin 8y ago
never heard of indirect salary before, can you explain what that is?
- jpic 8y ago
  maybe they mean social rights