6 ms·

I don't agree with Hanging punctuation. I want the bullet points to be indented. Probably because that's what I'm used to. Also there's no real benefit of compa

by z3t4 8y ago

I don't agree with Hanging punctuation. I want the bullet points to be indented. Probably because that's what I'm used to. Also there's no real benefit of compact text on the web, you are not wasting paper.

matejlatin 8y ago
That's ok, it's a matter of preference and how emphasized the bullet lists need to be. I even mention this somewhere in the article.
- arendtio 8y ago
  I use bullets intentionally to break the flow. Nowadays many readers are getting tired of too long passages, and bullet points are one way to give the text visually more structure.
  - matejlatin 8y ago
    Yup, that's a great point. This article is based on a chapter from my book but this is chapter 6 out of 13 already. In earlier chapters, I discuss how we need to know the content, the goals of the text and what are the user's goals (read, skim, search etc.). Of course, we can't be 100% sure on their goals but we can take an educated guess based on the content we're designing with. Decisions like these should be based on that (+ personal preference of course).
- temo4ka 8y ago
  > how emphasized the bullet lists need to be Exactly. For me, the indented list emphasizes the distinct structural entity, contrasting it against the bulk of the text. This makes lists easier to recognize (especially the short ones in narrow columns, like in your example) while previewing and skimming the reading material. You mention pattern recognition at the start of the article, and this is exactly the thing that makes pattern recognition easier, for me at least. And I would prefer “practically useful” over “typographically correct” every time :-).
  - matejlatin 8y ago
    >And I would prefer “practically useful” over “typographically correct” every time :-). That is a good guideline.
    - djrobstep 8y ago
      Spaced paragraphs are another good example of this. Apparently they "make skilled typographers cringe" but break the text up arguably more clearly, and look fine, at least to an unsophisticated rube like me.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- uhoh-itsmaciek 8y ago
  It seems like an odd preference in the first place, though. You write "...the bullets should be hanging so they don’t disrupt the flow of the text," but isn't the point of a bullet list to disrupt the flow of text in order to focus on the individual items? Most hanging bullets I've seen have been a distraction because the content of the list is lost in the body of the text plus there's this heavy element (the bullets themselves) sticking out in the margin.
garretraziel 8y ago
I also thought so (about hanging bullet points), but it's true that in this example: https://codepen.io/matejlatin/full/dRLRpW/ https://codepen.io/matejlatin/full/dRLRpW/ they IMO look better.
- topoftheforts 8y ago
  Wait, this example is different, the first list has a 40px left padding, which adds unnecessary space at the left of each bullet point. With a 20px left padding it looks way better than the example below in my opinion.
  - Sharlin 8y ago
    That's unfortunately the default on browsers (with the default `list-style-position: inside`). So we basically have three choices: 1. The bullets itself are indented. This is ugly and rarely what you want but for some reason the default. 2. The bullets line up with the left edge of the rest of the content; the bulletpoint text is indented, naturally. 3. The bullets are hanging; the bulletpoint text lines up with other paragraphs, as recommended in the article.
    - zzzcpan 8y ago
      Note, that the article's recommendation is wrong, we pretty much never need 3, as article suggests. We make lists for a reason, we want them to be easily distinguishable from the rest of the text. We don't want to disrupt the flow by confusing people when they read a next line and don't yet realize it's a list, because a bullet is not placed where they pay attention to. We want people to realize they are about to read a list and process it appropriately, not as a paragraph. Maybe they even want to skip it entirely for now and continue with the text below to avoid breaking context.
- Stratoscope 8y ago
  The second example looks terrible on my Note 8. The bullets are in the curved screen edge and actually touch the black bezel, making it look like the bezel has little protrusions encroaching into the screen.
sureaboutthis 8y ago
It may be what you're used to but typographers have been doing that for centuries. Compact text is a design decision, in many but not all cases, that is unrelated to wasting paper.

by z3t4 8y ago

matejlatin 8y ago

That's ok, it's a matter of preference and how emphasized the bullet lists need to be. I even mention this somewhere in the article.

arendtio 8y ago
I use bullets intentionally to break the flow. Nowadays many readers are getting tired of too long passages, and bullet points are one way to give the text visually more structure.
- matejlatin 8y ago
  Yup, that's a great point. This article is based on a chapter from my book but this is chapter 6 out of 13 already. In earlier chapters, I discuss how we need to know the content, the goals of the text and what are the user's goals (read, skim, search etc.). Of course, we can't be 100% sure on their goals but we can take an educated guess based on the content we're designing with. Decisions like these should be based on that (+ personal preference of course).
temo4ka 8y ago
> how emphasized the bullet lists need to be Exactly. For me, the indented list emphasizes the distinct structural entity, contrasting it against the bulk of the text. This makes lists easier to recognize (especially the short ones in narrow columns, like in your example) while previewing and skimming the reading material. You mention pattern recognition at the start of the article, and this is exactly the thing that makes pattern recognition easier, for me at least. And I would prefer “practically useful” over “typographically correct” every time :-).
- matejlatin 8y ago
  >And I would prefer “practically useful” over “typographically correct” every time :-). That is a good guideline.
  - djrobstep 8y ago
    Spaced paragraphs are another good example of this. Apparently they "make skilled typographers cringe" but break the text up arguably more clearly, and look fine, at least to an unsophisticated rube like me.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
uhoh-itsmaciek 8y ago
It seems like an odd preference in the first place, though. You write "...the bullets should be hanging so they don’t disrupt the flow of the text," but isn't the point of a bullet list to disrupt the flow of text in order to focus on the individual items? Most hanging bullets I've seen have been a distraction because the content of the list is lost in the body of the text plus there's this heavy element (the bullets themselves) sticking out in the margin.

garretraziel 8y ago

I also thought so (about hanging bullet points), but it's true that in this example: https://codepen.io/matejlatin/full/dRLRpW/ https://codepen.io/matejlatin/full/dRLRpW/ they IMO look better.

topoftheforts 8y ago
Wait, this example is different, the first list has a 40px left padding, which adds unnecessary space at the left of each bullet point. With a 20px left padding it looks way better than the example below in my opinion.
- Sharlin 8y ago
  That's unfortunately the default on browsers (with the default `list-style-position: inside`). So we basically have three choices: 1. The bullets itself are indented. This is ugly and rarely what you want but for some reason the default. 2. The bullets line up with the left edge of the rest of the content; the bulletpoint text is indented, naturally. 3. The bullets are hanging; the bulletpoint text lines up with other paragraphs, as recommended in the article.
  - zzzcpan 8y ago
    Note, that the article's recommendation is wrong, we pretty much never need 3, as article suggests. We make lists for a reason, we want them to be easily distinguishable from the rest of the text. We don't want to disrupt the flow by confusing people when they read a next line and don't yet realize it's a list, because a bullet is not placed where they pay attention to. We want people to realize they are about to read a list and process it appropriately, not as a paragraph. Maybe they even want to skip it entirely for now and continue with the text below to avoid breaking context.
Stratoscope 8y ago
The second example looks terrible on my Note 8. The bullets are in the curved screen edge and actually touch the black bezel, making it look like the bezel has little protrusions encroaching into the screen.

sureaboutthis 8y ago

It may be what you're used to but typographers have been doing that for centuries. Compact text is a design decision, in many but not all cases, that is unrelated to wasting paper.