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I am French and I applaud at any initiative to help the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)! 1. But even if my browser is s

I am French and I applaud at any initiative to help the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)! 1. But even if my browser is set to English, I see French on https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ and most of the issues on the Github repository are written in French! What signal do you want to send? 2. As one can find on "https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/" https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/" the employee gets only half of what the employer pays. Contrary to what is stated on the same site, one employee does not get much benefit of what the employer pays for her retirements and healthcare, because: * if she is hired now, there is a good probability that she will have only a little retirement pension in 40 years, even if the law does not change. (probably close to the minimum salary, at least I hope so). So all this considerable amount of money will be wasted in the state and the "sécurité sociale" deep pockets. * It is the same for the health fund: What makes the French health system seems free for workers, is that they have a mandatory mutual [0] which pays for most of the costs. The "Social security" pays around of 10% of most usual costs, the mutual fund pays the rest... Most French companies are trying hard to use other schemes for paying better their employees, for example because they have some company investment fund, but "shut...". [0] This website is provided by the URSSAF, the French social security contributions collector"

roma1n 8y ago
> The "Social security" pays around of 10% of most usual costs, the mutual fund pays the rest... What? The basic insurance scheme pays at least 60% of a set of reasonable, negotiated fees and the "mutuelle" covers the rest. There are a few corner cases (complicated dental work, optics) but these are being addressed. Usually the out-of-pocket expense is minimal to nil (a "forfait moderateur" of around 1 euro per doctor's appointment for instance)
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  Please... Have you had to pay for glasses, dentistry, hearing aids? Even the current president acknowledges what I said (which is a fresh start)
nodefourtytwo 8y ago
Why spreading FUD? Social security paid for 76% of all medical costs in 2014 (last numbers I could find). 92% of hospital bills 64% of doctors visits 62% of drugs, glasses and such. Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protection-sociale/risque-sante/depenses-sante/quelle-est-part-securite-sociale-financement-consommation-soins-biens-medicaux.html http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protectio... You also have a very simplistic way of understanding how our retirement pension system works and the role it has in the society.
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  > Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. Not paying at the pharmacy does not mean that you do not pay at all. You pay three times: Your employer pays for you a huge amount, you pay (look at your payroll), your mutual fund pays. Most people pay much more indirectly during their life than they receive services through the SS.
  - nodefourtytwo 8y ago
    You just described how insurance works.
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  > You also have a very simplistic way of understanding how our retirement pension system works and the role it has in the society. I may have a simplistic way to understand it, but I am well educated in business and I had to hire people during my professional life.
- hycaria 8y ago
  Is it really social security that pays for glasses ? They pay like 10 euros for a pair... Everything else is covered by private insurances. Except if you're worthy of CMU maybe ?
  - 8y ago
phtrivier 8y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "deep pockets" of the "Sécurité Sociale" (is it "deep" in the sense that it's seen as bottomless, has a rather big deficit for parts of it, and it kinda assumed to be bailed out by taxpayer ; or "deep" because someone keeps the money ?) Also, we have to make one thing clear about the whole system in France, that's quite different from other places: your employer does not pay for your retirement and healthcase ; she pays for everyone's. Since you're most likely not retired when you have an employer (duh), and most likely not heavily sick, that's probably mostly "everyone else's". Of course, the line gets more bluried if you happen to have kids (and get the "allocations familiales", or housing help, etc...) or sick relatives, or retired ancestors. It's a long, heated, and complicated debate whether this is a good thing or not, and whether this is sustainable in the long-term, and whether the current generation of worker will be able to get the same "generosity" from the next generation. It's also true that most people find some way to save money "for themselves", and that companies can benefit from systems where they save money directly for their employees. And, guess what ? As usual, this is debated at the very moment we speak, so expect nothing except change :/
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  Thanks for this comment, it is well written and informative. > and whether the current generation of worker will be able to get the same "generosity" from the next generation. It does not work well even now as there are nearly as much retirees as employees. Only debt and the fact we are a huge economy in EU save us.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Its not that unique social system, quite contrary - a lot of countries have this setup since 50s or 60s. Eastern Europe is moving/moved from this system in many cases. You can either save for yourself (ie in mandatory pension funds) and have a risk of bankruptcy (with some governmental cover, but can't expect 100%), or have a system where current workers pay pensions for current retirees, or some mix of those. And all you can do is hope hard that once you retire, there will be enough people working for your pension (it won't). You have to save/invest aside to be really safe in 20-30 years - not really great social system if you ask me. Expect retirement age to be raised gradually exactly because this is failing. It is utterly unsustainable, demographic curve and raw numbers won't let you do miracles, and you can't rely on pure immigration to fix this these days. Happy to be in the system which doesn't work like that, I can see how much I have spared, what is the projection for retirement etc. I can decide when I to retire and manage with what I have saved.
daxat_staglatz 8y ago
> the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)! That public spending is c. 55% of GDP does not mean that private spending is 45% of GDP, since private + public spending does not equal GDP. Back of the envelope computations put private spending at 265% of GDP [0]. > if she is hired now, there is a good probability that she will have only a little retirement pension in 40 years, even if the law does not change. (probably close to the minimum salary, at least I hope so). So all this considerable amount of money will be wasted in the state and the "sécurité sociale" deep pockets. It is hard to understand how French people can both have "very low" pensions and then be one of the country that spend the most on pensions as a share of GDP [1], and have retirees richer than working people [2, p5.] [0] https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-chez-les-economistes-atterres/20140507.RUE0109/calculee-comme-la-depense-publique-la-depense-privee-depasserait-200-du-pib.html https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-chez-les-economistes-a... [1] https://data.oecd.org/socialexp/pension-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/socialexp/pension-spending.htm [2] http://www.cor-retraites.fr/IMG/pdf/doc-4099.pdf http://www.cor-retraites.fr/IMG/pdf/doc-4099.pdf
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  > It is hard to understand how French people can both have "very low" pensions and then be one of the country that spend the most on pensions as a share of GDP [1], and have retirees richer than working people [2, p5.] Yes that is entirely true, but you do not take in account that: * The median average revenue is around 1200 euros per month! * The pension is financed partly through the debt (one third) * There are nearly as much retirees as workers (16M vs 17M) * We are 65 M people and our "social security" is based on 17M people who are payed a misery? The system will bankrupt soon.
  - roma1n 8y ago
    The median salary is around 1800 euros for workers[1]. Not sure where you got the 1200 euros figure from. [1] https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3135908 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3135908
    - 8y ago
realusername 8y ago
> most of the issues on the Github repository are written in French! What signal do you want to send? The source of that website is the French law anyway, the code is just for reference, you have to understand French to do business in France.

roma1n 8y ago

> The "Social security" pays around of 10% of most usual costs, the mutual fund pays the rest... What? The basic insurance scheme pays at least 60% of a set of reasonable, negotiated fees and the "mutuelle" covers the rest. There are a few corner cases (complicated dental work, optics) but these are being addressed. Usually the out-of-pocket expense is minimal to nil (a "forfait moderateur" of around 1 euro per doctor's appointment for instance)

JPLeRouzic 8y ago
Please... Have you had to pay for glasses, dentistry, hearing aids? Even the current president acknowledges what I said (which is a fresh start)

nodefourtytwo 8y ago

Why spreading FUD? Social security paid for 76% of all medical costs in 2014 (last numbers I could find). 92% of hospital bills 64% of doctors visits 62% of drugs, glasses and such. Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protection-sociale/risque-sante/depenses-sante/quelle-est-part-securite-sociale-financement-consommation-soins-biens-medicaux.html http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protectio... You also have a very simplistic way of understanding how our retirement pension system works and the role it has in the society.

JPLeRouzic 8y ago
> Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. Not paying at the pharmacy does not mean that you do not pay at all. You pay three times: Your employer pays for you a huge amount, you pay (look at your payroll), your mutual fund pays. Most people pay much more indirectly during their life than they receive services through the SS.
- nodefourtytwo 8y ago
  You just described how insurance works.
JPLeRouzic 8y ago
> You also have a very simplistic way of understanding how our retirement pension system works and the role it has in the society. I may have a simplistic way to understand it, but I am well educated in business and I had to hire people during my professional life.
hycaria 8y ago
Is it really social security that pays for glasses ? They pay like 10 euros for a pair... Everything else is covered by private insurances. Except if you're worthy of CMU maybe ?
- 8y ago

phtrivier 8y ago

I'm not sure what you mean by "deep pockets" of the "Sécurité Sociale" (is it "deep" in the sense that it's seen as bottomless, has a rather big deficit for parts of it, and it kinda assumed to be bailed out by taxpayer ; or "deep" because someone keeps the money ?) Also, we have to make one thing clear about the whole system in France, that's quite different from other places: your employer does not pay for your retirement and healthcase ; she pays for everyone's. Since you're most likely not retired when you have an employer (duh), and most likely not heavily sick, that's probably mostly "everyone else's". Of course, the line gets more bluried if you happen to have kids (and get the "allocations familiales", or housing help, etc...) or sick relatives, or retired ancestors. It's a long, heated, and complicated debate whether this is a good thing or not, and whether this is sustainable in the long-term, and whether the current generation of worker will be able to get the same "generosity" from the next generation. It's also true that most people find some way to save money "for themselves", and that companies can benefit from systems where they save money directly for their employees. And, guess what ? As usual, this is debated at the very moment we speak, so expect nothing except change :/

JPLeRouzic 8y ago
Thanks for this comment, it is well written and informative. > and whether the current generation of worker will be able to get the same "generosity" from the next generation. It does not work well even now as there are nearly as much retirees as employees. Only debt and the fact we are a huge economy in EU save us.
saiya-jin 8y ago
Its not that unique social system, quite contrary - a lot of countries have this setup since 50s or 60s. Eastern Europe is moving/moved from this system in many cases. You can either save for yourself (ie in mandatory pension funds) and have a risk of bankruptcy (with some governmental cover, but can't expect 100%), or have a system where current workers pay pensions for current retirees, or some mix of those. And all you can do is hope hard that once you retire, there will be enough people working for your pension (it won't). You have to save/invest aside to be really safe in 20-30 years - not really great social system if you ask me. Expect retirement age to be raised gradually exactly because this is failing. It is utterly unsustainable, demographic curve and raw numbers won't let you do miracles, and you can't rely on pure immigration to fix this these days. Happy to be in the system which doesn't work like that, I can see how much I have spared, what is the projection for retirement etc. I can decide when I to retire and manage with what I have saved.

daxat_staglatz 8y ago

> the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)! That public spending is c. 55% of GDP does not mean that private spending is 45% of GDP, since private + public spending does not equal GDP. Back of the envelope computations put private spending at 265% of GDP [0]. > if she is hired now, there is a good probability that she will have only a little retirement pension in 40 years, even if the law does not change. (probably close to the minimum salary, at least I hope so). So all this considerable amount of money will be wasted in the state and the "sécurité sociale" deep pockets. It is hard to understand how French people can both have "very low" pensions and then be one of the country that spend the most on pensions as a share of GDP [1], and have retirees richer than working people [2, p5.] [0] https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-chez-les-economistes-atterres/20140507.RUE0109/calculee-comme-la-depense-publique-la-depense-privee-depasserait-200-du-pib.html https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-chez-les-economistes-a... [1] https://data.oecd.org/socialexp/pension-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/socialexp/pension-spending.htm [2] http://www.cor-retraites.fr/IMG/pdf/doc-4099.pdf http://www.cor-retraites.fr/IMG/pdf/doc-4099.pdf

JPLeRouzic 8y ago
> It is hard to understand how French people can both have "very low" pensions and then be one of the country that spend the most on pensions as a share of GDP [1], and have retirees richer than working people [2, p5.] Yes that is entirely true, but you do not take in account that: * The median average revenue is around 1200 euros per month! * The pension is financed partly through the debt (one third) * There are nearly as much retirees as workers (16M vs 17M) * We are 65 M people and our "social security" is based on 17M people who are payed a misery? The system will bankrupt soon.
- roma1n 8y ago
  The median salary is around 1800 euros for workers[1]. Not sure where you got the 1200 euros figure from. [1] https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3135908 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3135908
  - 8y ago

realusername 8y ago

> most of the issues on the Github repository are written in French! What signal do you want to send? The source of that website is the French law anyway, the code is just for reference, you have to understand French to do business in France.