6 ms·

Google self-driving car crashes were covered up

42 points by abeld 8y ago

Piskvorrr 8y ago
So, does that mean the "spotless safety record" meant "you can't find anything about our mistakes"? That doesn't sound creepy at all, nonono.
- setr 8y ago
  It’s only a crime if you get caught ;)
- skgoa 8y ago
  Everyone games the mandatory safety reporting. Mostly by doing testing under the radar and/or outside California. Google has taken that a step further by counting disengagements (meaning instances of the system failing and having to be overriden by the driver) only when the system would definitely have crashed.
  - oldgradstudent 8y ago
    > only when the system would definitely have crashed. With no external oversight, no transparency, and a sketchy record of honest reporting.
godzillabrennus 8y ago
How does a man require multiple surgeries to his spine from an accident but the company paying for those surgeries claims the accident isn’t known? That’s about as amazing as Hollywood accounting.
- mikejb 8y ago
  Playing the devils advocate here: There was (apparently) no physical contact between the cars, so one could just tell a different story about the type of accident, or just leave out that the Camry then pinwheeled into the median. (Reason for lying about it could be that they drove the car in autonomous mode on 'forbidden routes' and feared repercussions). Having said that - I doubt that's how things happened.
  - londons_explore 8y ago
    'pinwheeled into the median' sounds like loosing control... That only is likley to happen if someone hits someone else...
    - mikejb 8y ago
      It doesn't sound like the cars collided. The original story [1] includes more details, but it definitely sounds like a collision was avoided, and that avoidance caused the spine injury and the Camry pinwheeling. > The cars continued speeding down the freeway side by side. The Camry’s driver jerked his car onto the right shoulder. Then, apparently trying to avoid a guardrail, he veered to the left; the Camry pinwheeled across the freeway and into the median. Levandowski, who was acting as the safety driver, swerved hard to avoid colliding with the Camry, causing Taylor to injure his spine so severely that he eventually required multiple surgeries. > The Prius regained control and turned a corner on the freeway, leaving the Camry behind. [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/22/did-uber-steal-googles-intellectual-property https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/22/did-uber-steal...
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      An oversteer to avoid a hazard followed by loss of control (especially exacerbated by some kind of panic reaction) could do it.
- oldgradstudent 8y ago
  > That’s about as amazing as Hollywood accounting. Hollywood accounting does not kill or maim.
TeeWEE 8y ago
This is the worst article i ever read. Its suggestive, and it point to 2014. Its just trying to get viewers.
- oldgradstudent 8y ago
  It's better than the usual BS which is just repackaged PR coming from Waymo, Uber, and the other self-driving car promoters.
mikejb 8y ago
Did Google pay off the Camry driver? If I was pushed into an accident by a car with company decals and a sensor suite on top [1], I'd definitely include this when reporting the accident. It's an incredible story, and I'm not sure whether I say that in it's literal or figurative meaning. (Note that the author of the article is Charles Duhigg, a Pulitzer-price winning journalist - so it's not just a story posted by some dude on his blog). [1] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cdgQpa1pUUE/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cdgQpa1pUUE/maxresdefault.jpg (This is the type of cars they had in 2012).
- oldgradstudent 8y ago
  What I understood from the article is that they left the scene without reporting it. There was another incident they never reported. The other driver was undocumented and he also preferred not to report.
  - mikejb 8y ago
    > The other driver was undocumented and he also preferred not to report. I don't live in the US, so I don't know - but is that common? To me, it sounds like a significant accident, and I fail to understand why it wouldn't be reported.
    - sgc 8y ago
      The other driver was living in the US illegally, so he cut his losses to avoid the risk of deportation.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > The other driver was living in the US illegally The article only says he was unlicensed; the upthread poster converted that to “undocumented”.
        sgc 8y ago
        Sorry for perpetuating falsehood. Similar issue of legal repercussions, but in the larger context of the current political environment, worlds apart.
slivym 8y ago
This is just a sensationalist snippet from the long read from the New Yorker that was on hacker news yesterday. The engineer responsible was fired from Google for forming his own company and eventually went to Uber which was the cause of the massive lawsuit between the two, he's now close to unemployable. Since that incident 4 years ago it's pretty clear a lot has changed -but one thing that hasn't changed is Google's constant misrepresentation of their safety record.
- mikejb 8y ago
  It has been reported that it was a constant struggle to get Urmson (the lead in Project Chauffeur) and Levandowski (who wanted to just launch) to work together because they had such a contradictory approach on safety. Urmson left in 2016, shortly before Chauffeur spawned into Waymo.
- oldgradstudent 8y ago
  The crash was in 2011. Levandowski was fired in January 2016 only after he tried to recruit other employees. It demonstrates very well how they prioritize safety vs. potential profit.
hanswesterbeek 8y ago
All the tech aside (because I suppose they'll kind of get it done sooner or later), what I really want to know on this subject is: who's legally responsible in the case of an accident?

42 points by abeld 8y ago

So, does that mean the "spotless safety record" meant "you can't find anything about our mistakes"? That doesn't sound creepy at all, nonono.

setr 8y ago
It’s only a crime if you get caught ;)
skgoa 8y ago
Everyone games the mandatory safety reporting. Mostly by doing testing under the radar and/or outside California. Google has taken that a step further by counting disengagements (meaning instances of the system failing and having to be overriden by the driver) only when the system would definitely have crashed.
- oldgradstudent 8y ago
  > only when the system would definitely have crashed. With no external oversight, no transparency, and a sketchy record of honest reporting.

godzillabrennus 8y ago

How does a man require multiple surgeries to his spine from an accident but the company paying for those surgeries claims the accident isn’t known? That’s about as amazing as Hollywood accounting.

mikejb 8y ago
Playing the devils advocate here: There was (apparently) no physical contact between the cars, so one could just tell a different story about the type of accident, or just leave out that the Camry then pinwheeled into the median. (Reason for lying about it could be that they drove the car in autonomous mode on 'forbidden routes' and feared repercussions). Having said that - I doubt that's how things happened.
- londons_explore 8y ago
  'pinwheeled into the median' sounds like loosing control... That only is likley to happen if someone hits someone else...
  - mikejb 8y ago
    It doesn't sound like the cars collided. The original story [1] includes more details, but it definitely sounds like a collision was avoided, and that avoidance caused the spine injury and the Camry pinwheeling. > The cars continued speeding down the freeway side by side. The Camry’s driver jerked his car onto the right shoulder. Then, apparently trying to avoid a guardrail, he veered to the left; the Camry pinwheeled across the freeway and into the median. Levandowski, who was acting as the safety driver, swerved hard to avoid colliding with the Camry, causing Taylor to injure his spine so severely that he eventually required multiple surgeries. > The Prius regained control and turned a corner on the freeway, leaving the Camry behind. [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/22/did-uber-steal-googles-intellectual-property https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/22/did-uber-steal...
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    An oversteer to avoid a hazard followed by loss of control (especially exacerbated by some kind of panic reaction) could do it.
oldgradstudent 8y ago
> That’s about as amazing as Hollywood accounting. Hollywood accounting does not kill or maim.

TeeWEE 8y ago

This is the worst article i ever read. Its suggestive, and it point to 2014. Its just trying to get viewers.

oldgradstudent 8y ago
It's better than the usual BS which is just repackaged PR coming from Waymo, Uber, and the other self-driving car promoters.

mikejb 8y ago

Did Google pay off the Camry driver? If I was pushed into an accident by a car with company decals and a sensor suite on top [1], I'd definitely include this when reporting the accident. It's an incredible story, and I'm not sure whether I say that in it's literal or figurative meaning. (Note that the author of the article is Charles Duhigg, a Pulitzer-price winning journalist - so it's not just a story posted by some dude on his blog). [1] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cdgQpa1pUUE/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cdgQpa1pUUE/maxresdefault.jpg (This is the type of cars they had in 2012).

oldgradstudent 8y ago
What I understood from the article is that they left the scene without reporting it. There was another incident they never reported. The other driver was undocumented and he also preferred not to report.
- mikejb 8y ago
  > The other driver was undocumented and he also preferred not to report. I don't live in the US, so I don't know - but is that common? To me, it sounds like a significant accident, and I fail to understand why it wouldn't be reported.
  - sgc 8y ago
    The other driver was living in the US illegally, so he cut his losses to avoid the risk of deportation.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > The other driver was living in the US illegally The article only says he was unlicensed; the upthread poster converted that to “undocumented”.
      - sgc 8y ago
        Sorry for perpetuating falsehood. Similar issue of legal repercussions, but in the larger context of the current political environment, worlds apart.

slivym 8y ago

This is just a sensationalist snippet from the long read from the New Yorker that was on hacker news yesterday. The engineer responsible was fired from Google for forming his own company and eventually went to Uber which was the cause of the massive lawsuit between the two, he's now close to unemployable. Since that incident 4 years ago it's pretty clear a lot has changed -but one thing that hasn't changed is Google's constant misrepresentation of their safety record.

mikejb 8y ago
It has been reported that it was a constant struggle to get Urmson (the lead in Project Chauffeur) and Levandowski (who wanted to just launch) to work together because they had such a contradictory approach on safety. Urmson left in 2016, shortly before Chauffeur spawned into Waymo.
oldgradstudent 8y ago
The crash was in 2011. Levandowski was fired in January 2016 only after he tried to recruit other employees. It demonstrates very well how they prioritize safety vs. potential profit.

hanswesterbeek 8y ago

All the tech aside (because I suppose they'll kind of get it done sooner or later), what I really want to know on this subject is: who's legally responsible in the case of an accident?