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>The Python world certainly doesn't need more web frameworks. But, it does need more creativity. Then why create a "new python HTTP service framework"? The Fl

by daenz 8y ago

>The Python world certainly doesn't need more web frameworks. But, it does need more creativity. Then why create a "new python HTTP service framework"? The Flask and Falcon communities are very welcoming to creativity. This project strikes me as a fun side project that doesn't have serious legs or ambitions, which, don't get me wrong, is totally encouraged and fine! However, when it's being touted as a new framework for people to use, complete with its own logo and testimonials(???), it really presents itself as yet another soon-to-be unsupported and unmaintained/discarded project. We have to judge it based on how its presented, and in my humble opinion, it's being presented as The Hot New Shit, when it's maybe 300 original lines on top of massive existing frameworks.

gigatexal 8y ago
This is Kenneth Reitz, it’ll be supported.
- daenz 8y ago
  Sorry, but invoking the name of someone who has many half-baked projects on their github (and again, that's totally fine), doesn't instill confidence in me to put my business's new product on it. There's nothing groundbreaking here. Innovation has to outweigh the lack of project maturity for serious people to use it in production, and the innovation just isn't here.
  - Perados 8y ago
    You really have no idea who Kenneth Reitz is, do you?
    - daenz 8y ago
      He wrote Requests. His many other side projects are not nearly adopted, supported, or maintained like Requests. This project will likely be the same as the vast majority of those other side projects. This cult of personality stuff is really bizarre though. I actually feel bad for Kenneth in this regard, since he'll never know if what he makes is actually any good, since his followers will tell him it's the greatest thing since sliced bread regardless. I have legitimate support concerns before I would even consider using this for something real, and I've had two responses so far that address them by merely invoking his name. What a sad place to be in.
      - gigatexal 8y ago
        Requests is a work of art. And the man is a self taught programmer. In that regard he can be my patron saint for that matter. How many of us have repos that we don’t maintain. He does this work for free. So if he wants to let something languish so be it. If you depend on a work he doesn’t upkeep then fork it and add to it.
roboyoshi 8y ago
> This project strikes me as a fun side project that doesn't have serious legs or ambitions And it totally is! "The primary goal here is to learn, not to get adoption" [1]. Kenneth Reitz is just another developer who created a public repo with some docs, a logo and the clear indication that it is just for fun. I don't see why everyone is so on the fence with this. [1] https://github.com/kennethreitz/responder#the-goal https://github.com/kennethreitz/responder#the-goal
- guitarbill 8y ago
  Maybe it's a bit disingenuous to claim that's your primary goal when you've gone to the trouble of designing a logo and adding "testimonials" to your README. And Kenneth Reitz isn't "just another developer". He's well known, and isn't shy to mention his `requests` library ("uses the actual Requests you know and love"). Cynically, you might say the "just for learning" phrase is a great way of avoiding comparisons to existing frameworks initially. The thing is, it could compare favorably. For one thing, Flask and Falcon support/have to support (?) old Python versions - Falcon even says they support Python 2.6, which is ridiculous (EDIT: doesn't seem to be true from the tox file, but the website still claims it does). All that compatibility stuff provides zero value for new projects. Background tasks are a great idea. Being a bit opinionated isn't necessarily a bad thing either; Flask would benefit hugely if they recommend people use app factories and blueprints from day 1. It adds almost no overhead, but makes building the application out much, much easier in the future.
coleifer 8y ago
Yeah, it has quite a bit of marketing juju going on, which flies in the face of the "just for fun" disclaimer. If its just for fun, why push it so hard? The testimonials is especially cringe. Its not just another web framework, its another plea for approval.

by daenz 8y ago

gigatexal 8y ago

This is Kenneth Reitz, it’ll be supported.

daenz 8y ago
Sorry, but invoking the name of someone who has many half-baked projects on their github (and again, that's totally fine), doesn't instill confidence in me to put my business's new product on it. There's nothing groundbreaking here. Innovation has to outweigh the lack of project maturity for serious people to use it in production, and the innovation just isn't here.
- Perados 8y ago
  You really have no idea who Kenneth Reitz is, do you?
  - daenz 8y ago
    He wrote Requests. His many other side projects are not nearly adopted, supported, or maintained like Requests. This project will likely be the same as the vast majority of those other side projects. This cult of personality stuff is really bizarre though. I actually feel bad for Kenneth in this regard, since he'll never know if what he makes is actually any good, since his followers will tell him it's the greatest thing since sliced bread regardless. I have legitimate support concerns before I would even consider using this for something real, and I've had two responses so far that address them by merely invoking his name. What a sad place to be in.
    - gigatexal 8y ago
      Requests is a work of art. And the man is a self taught programmer. In that regard he can be my patron saint for that matter. How many of us have repos that we don’t maintain. He does this work for free. So if he wants to let something languish so be it. If you depend on a work he doesn’t upkeep then fork it and add to it.

roboyoshi 8y ago

> This project strikes me as a fun side project that doesn't have serious legs or ambitions And it totally is! "The primary goal here is to learn, not to get adoption" [1]. Kenneth Reitz is just another developer who created a public repo with some docs, a logo and the clear indication that it is just for fun. I don't see why everyone is so on the fence with this. [1] https://github.com/kennethreitz/responder#the-goal https://github.com/kennethreitz/responder#the-goal

guitarbill 8y ago
Maybe it's a bit disingenuous to claim that's your primary goal when you've gone to the trouble of designing a logo and adding "testimonials" to your README. And Kenneth Reitz isn't "just another developer". He's well known, and isn't shy to mention his `requests` library ("uses the actual Requests you know and love"). Cynically, you might say the "just for learning" phrase is a great way of avoiding comparisons to existing frameworks initially. The thing is, it could compare favorably. For one thing, Flask and Falcon support/have to support (?) old Python versions - Falcon even says they support Python 2.6, which is ridiculous (EDIT: doesn't seem to be true from the tox file, but the website still claims it does). All that compatibility stuff provides zero value for new projects. Background tasks are a great idea. Being a bit opinionated isn't necessarily a bad thing either; Flask would benefit hugely if they recommend people use app factories and blueprints from day 1. It adds almost no overhead, but makes building the application out much, much easier in the future.

coleifer 8y ago

Yeah, it has quite a bit of marketing juju going on, which flies in the face of the "just for fun" disclaimer. If its just for fun, why push it so hard? The testimonials is especially cringe. Its not just another web framework, its another plea for approval.