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However, are we throwing the baby of crowd-sourced neighborhood policing opted into by residents (essentially, a digitally-assisted neighborhood watch) with the

However, are we throwing the baby of crowd-sourced neighborhood policing opted into by residents (essentially, a digitally-assisted neighborhood watch) with the bathwater of potential for abuse? What are the actual abuse scenarios that we would fear could occur? These technologies aren't either-or; they're a tradeoff of possible benefits and drawbacks. What concrete drawbacks should we be concerned with here?

epicide 8y ago
The technologies aren't either/or, but the implementation, control, and regulations are. I'm all for neighborhoods policing themselves, but this isn't even close to that. I would be fine with there being additional tools that assist the individual consumer with reporting crimes or providing video evidence to police. Amazon/Ring/whoever doesn't need to be involved with what is a local/neighborhood issue.
- fixermark 8y ago
  > Amazon/Ring/whoever doesn't need to be involved with what is a local/neighborhood issue In what way? Who on Earth is going to set up and maintain those tools, pay for the hardware, provide service channels for the hardware, etc.? Technological sophistication is by no means uniformly distributed.
  - epicide 8y ago
    I don't take issue with them making the hardware and selling a product. I have an issue with them being so heavily involved with the police side of things. There's a big difference between a feature that allows consumers to report a video and a feature that allows police to demand a video.
    - fixermark 8y ago
      But they are both features that have to be implemented, and they'll be implemented sooner if done by the same org. If we have no problem with the police having the tool at all, why would it be bad for Amazon to implement it? (Unless the issue is you don't think the police should have the tool at all, in which case the question is "Who should? Can private citizens be trusted with this information aggregation? Can private citizens' designated / elected representatives? Or should we just make sharing of private video feeds for surveillance purposes illegal, uh... somehow?").
    - fixermark 8y ago
      (Also, FWIW, "request to voluntarily divulge video" is not the same as "demand").
toomuchtodo 8y ago
> What are the actual abuse scenarios that we would fear could occur? Abuse by police for non-official business (stalking). Targeting of individual citizens and their daily activities because they attempt to hold public officials accountable. Constant surveillance of the wrong individuals. All off the top of my head from events that have occurred ("ripped from the headlines"). I could go on, but only because I take time to hold my public officials and government accountable as a hobby. It is deeply unsettling, based on history (not just global, local US history alone), when technology professionals retort to issues like this with, "What's the big deal?"
- fixermark 8y ago
  Is that tradeoff worth seeing many, many fewer Amazon packages stolen wholesale from front porches? ... if you ask around, you may find the average neighborhood resident's answer is "yes." Especially if one finds the average neighborhood citizen isn't living under a corrupt police hierarchy, but instead an underfunded / understaffed one.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    If you're willing to trade your privacy and security for reduced Amazon package theft, I'm unable to reason with you as my neighbor.
    - fixermark 8y ago
      Sounds like you live in one of the neighborhoods that doesn't have a rampant theft problem, but okay. ;) FWIW, the bias I approach this from is that we can't order packages delivered to my relatives because petty theft is so rampant in their area that packages will, on average, go missing. And the police are too underfunded to do anything about the new trend of theft right now. This technology would be life-changing in terms of convenience to them; it's a non-trivial expenditure of resources to schlep out to an Amazon pickup center of the post office to get anything large.
      - 8y ago
alphabettsy 8y ago
The only abuse scenario I’ve seen on the app so far myself is people of color continually having their images shared as suspicious while walking down the sidewalk. Maybe that says more about my area than anything, but that’s a potential problem. That, and a lady posted a photo of a vehicle and license plate that she followed several days after a recent minor crime was associated with a vehcile of the same make and color. Not sure if it ended up being the vehicle, but this should’ve only been shared with law enforcement since it could’ve been anyone’s car that happened to be similar.
- fixermark 8y ago
  Risk of increasing efficiency of racism is definitely a concern. On the plus side, an audit trail dataset of "suspicious person" neighborhood reports coupled with some racial-identification of the subjects in the images would be a concrete dataset to demonstrate structural racism to the (still-existant) nonbelievers in the phenomenon.

epicide 8y ago

The technologies aren't either/or, but the implementation, control, and regulations are. I'm all for neighborhoods policing themselves, but this isn't even close to that. I would be fine with there being additional tools that assist the individual consumer with reporting crimes or providing video evidence to police. Amazon/Ring/whoever doesn't need to be involved with what is a local/neighborhood issue.

fixermark 8y ago
> Amazon/Ring/whoever doesn't need to be involved with what is a local/neighborhood issue In what way? Who on Earth is going to set up and maintain those tools, pay for the hardware, provide service channels for the hardware, etc.? Technological sophistication is by no means uniformly distributed.
- epicide 8y ago
  I don't take issue with them making the hardware and selling a product. I have an issue with them being so heavily involved with the police side of things. There's a big difference between a feature that allows consumers to report a video and a feature that allows police to demand a video.
  - fixermark 8y ago
    But they are both features that have to be implemented, and they'll be implemented sooner if done by the same org. If we have no problem with the police having the tool at all, why would it be bad for Amazon to implement it? (Unless the issue is you don't think the police should have the tool at all, in which case the question is "Who should? Can private citizens be trusted with this information aggregation? Can private citizens' designated / elected representatives? Or should we just make sharing of private video feeds for surveillance purposes illegal, uh... somehow?").
  - fixermark 8y ago
    (Also, FWIW, "request to voluntarily divulge video" is not the same as "demand").

toomuchtodo 8y ago

> What are the actual abuse scenarios that we would fear could occur? Abuse by police for non-official business (stalking). Targeting of individual citizens and their daily activities because they attempt to hold public officials accountable. Constant surveillance of the wrong individuals. All off the top of my head from events that have occurred ("ripped from the headlines"). I could go on, but only because I take time to hold my public officials and government accountable as a hobby. It is deeply unsettling, based on history (not just global, local US history alone), when technology professionals retort to issues like this with, "What's the big deal?"

fixermark 8y ago
Is that tradeoff worth seeing many, many fewer Amazon packages stolen wholesale from front porches? ... if you ask around, you may find the average neighborhood resident's answer is "yes." Especially if one finds the average neighborhood citizen isn't living under a corrupt police hierarchy, but instead an underfunded / understaffed one.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  If you're willing to trade your privacy and security for reduced Amazon package theft, I'm unable to reason with you as my neighbor.
  - fixermark 8y ago
    Sounds like you live in one of the neighborhoods that doesn't have a rampant theft problem, but okay. ;) FWIW, the bias I approach this from is that we can't order packages delivered to my relatives because petty theft is so rampant in their area that packages will, on average, go missing. And the police are too underfunded to do anything about the new trend of theft right now. This technology would be life-changing in terms of convenience to them; it's a non-trivial expenditure of resources to schlep out to an Amazon pickup center of the post office to get anything large.
    - 8y ago

alphabettsy 8y ago

The only abuse scenario I’ve seen on the app so far myself is people of color continually having their images shared as suspicious while walking down the sidewalk. Maybe that says more about my area than anything, but that’s a potential problem. That, and a lady posted a photo of a vehicle and license plate that she followed several days after a recent minor crime was associated with a vehcile of the same make and color. Not sure if it ended up being the vehicle, but this should’ve only been shared with law enforcement since it could’ve been anyone’s car that happened to be similar.

fixermark 8y ago
Risk of increasing efficiency of racism is definitely a concern. On the plus side, an audit trail dataset of "suspicious person" neighborhood reports coupled with some racial-identification of the subjects in the images would be a concrete dataset to demonstrate structural racism to the (still-existant) nonbelievers in the phenomenon.