5 ms·

Tell me again. What is his issue?

jchanimal 8y ago
I think it’s the old canard where conservatives don’t realize that the reason their viewpoints are not represented on campus is because they don’t hold up to intellectual scrutiny.
- friedman23 8y ago
  Are you using the argument that because current conservative policy is to deny the existence of man made climate change that every other conservative position is unscientific?
  - tiglionabbit 8y ago
    Well, what defensible prepositions have ya got?
- stevewodil 8y ago
  Weird, since typically the issue is seen in reverse where leftist views don't hold up to statistics and logic. Check out some of Ben Shapiro's talks, or Crowder's 'Change my mind' series
  - the_gastropod 8y ago
    Ah, yes. Let's review a few classic "leftist" views, and see if they hold up: 1. Single payer healthcare is both more effective and cheaper than the for-profit model we have now. [1] 2. Climate change is both actually happening and is largely caused by human activity. [I really hope I don't need to cite this...] 3. Gun control tends to lower gun violence. [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/upshot/why-single-payer-health-care-saves-money.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/upshot/why-single-payer-h... [2] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/gun-control-washington-post https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/g...
    - monksy 8y ago
      > 1. Single payer healthcare is both more effective and cheaper than the for-profit model we have now. [1] Personally, I agree with this one, if they're done right. (I think Germany is the best one in the western world) [One conservative view] This won't be done right in the context of the US given it's size and demand on it's people. (That also is where the anti-big gov arguement comes from as well) There is also a bit of FUD in reguards to it's change to the economy after implementation. [Higher taxes and a higher COL] (There are many other _good_ arguements against it.. such as the right to conduct business without government interference.. but see Ben Shapiro for that) > 2. Climate change is both actually happening and is largely caused by human activity. Most of the anti-climate change arguments that I've seen on this stem on weird twisting of data. I haven't seen a lot of solutions on the otherside. So that's equally weird and it just seems that people are yelling to convince some government body to "do something." (Whether it's effective or not.. that's a VERY big concern) > 3. Gun control tends to lower gun violence. It depends on context. There are many cases where this fails. (IL being one of those [it's easier to buy in IN].. since you can get and transport a firearm with different gun control requirements across the border). This goes for Canada, US, and Mexico. (Although if you enforce the borders strictly you can maintain gun control) The issue with this: Gun control is more restrictive on those who wish to legally use firearms, but barely does much to inhibit those who intend to use them illegally.
    - hackeraccount 8y ago
      1. call the current way healthcare is delivered in this country "for-profit" is stealing a base. It's truer to say it's a heavily regulated sector with public and private elements. If you're not happy with the status quo you could increase the public part of increase the private part. It seems unfair to increase the public role, continue to complain about the situation and then propose increasing the public part still more to fix those problems.
    - stevewodil 8y ago
      LOL CITES VOX AS A SOURCE. Enjoy your bubble! https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/vox-media#section-investors https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/vox-media#section-in...
- monksy 8y ago
  You've pointed out exactly the issue. It's a lack of diversity in thought and consideration of ideas that you disagree with. That should be the whole point of college. (An understanding of where the knowledge came from, how it's formed, and how to work with new ideas [even if they're wrong] If someone's idea doesn't hold up to scrutiny, academically speaking, you should identify it as such. The danger of labeling and avoiding ideas you don't like, in this case: conservatives, you're being intellectually dishonest and you're prone to basis.
- weberc2 8y ago
  Is this true across the board? I can think of a handful of popular tropes where this is true, like climate change skepticism, but even this comes in degrees ranging from conservatives who agree that climate change is real and needs action to those who agree it's real but are skeptical about the long term consequences to those who think that climate change is real but not man-made to those who think it's not real at all. Other popular examples are just evangelical beliefs projected to conservatives en masse (e.g., creationism). I guess conservatives seem pretty ideologically diverse, so maybe it would be helpful to specify which ideas in particular are keeping conservatives out of the academy?
  - jchanimal 8y ago
    Ok I’ll bite. Another unsubstantiated conservative canard: taxes are bad. When in fact highly redistributive polices are correlated with all-boats-rising economic tides. “But who cares if we are all worse off, taxes are theft,” whines the conservative. Cry me a river, it was always already the government’s money.
    - warrenm 8y ago
      > it was always already the government’s money Sounds like you went to the same fallacious economic school Elizabeth Warren did
      - jchanimal 8y ago
        I'm not the one choosing to fetishize some government's money.
        AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        You're the one choosing to fetishize a soundbite that most consider to be clearly wrong, if not completely insane. Merely repeating it is not a good persuasion tactic.
    - weberc2 8y ago
      > “But who cares if we are all worse off, taxes are theft,” whines the conservative You're proving my point. This is a fringe conservative position (conservatives are okay with taxes for critical infrastructure, national defense, some minimal social safety net, etc), but you're using that brush to paint all conservatives. Sadly, portraying moderates as extremists has become a goto debate tactic for the left wing, and it's frankly _boring_ never mind morally repugnant.
- Omnius 8y ago
  Interesting blanket statement if not completely false. The only thing you can sort of assume is that those with liberal/left leanings are more likely to be teachers.
viggity 8y ago
that the only diversity that administrators care about is diversity of (largely) indelible characteristics (skin color, sexual orientation, etc), instead of diversity of thought. I'd much rather go to a school where everyone looked the same but thought different, than a school where everyone looked different but thought the same.
- tiglionabbit 8y ago
  He complains about some events. He doesn't propose alternative events. What sort of events would exist if the administrators were more conservative?
- sebular 8y ago
  You contradict yourself. You imagine a school where everyone looks the same but thinks "different", and yet by your own definition that school doesn't have any women, blacks, gays, etc. How would that work? Do you imagine an academy of straight white men, some of which serve as delegates for the types of thought that emerge from groups that aren't allowed to attend? Your line of reasoning is the perfect example of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance "Why are you tolerant people so intolerant of my desire for a world without all this tolerance? I thought you hypocrites were tolerant!!"
  - viggity 8y ago
    in my hypothetical, I don't care what they look like, they could all be asian lesbians. There are conservative asian lesbians. There are liberal asian lesbians. Poor. Rich. Urban. Rural. From America. From Europe. ad infinitum. As long there is a good mix of backgrounds and ideologies. I will very much take that environment over a rainbow coalition will make attempts to ruin someone who dares disagree with the hivemind. Regarding tolerance - you do not see conservatives trying to no-platform liberals, but I could get you 100 examples of college liberals trying to no-platform conservatives. Who exactly are the tolerant ones? Did you see what happened to Bret Weinstein at Evergreen College? He is an ostensibly liberal guy, and what happened to him should send a shiver down the leg of anyone who is remotely interested in a free exchange of ideas.

I think it’s the old canard where conservatives don’t realize that the reason their viewpoints are not represented on campus is because they don’t hold up to intellectual scrutiny.

friedman23 8y ago
Are you using the argument that because current conservative policy is to deny the existence of man made climate change that every other conservative position is unscientific?
- tiglionabbit 8y ago
  Well, what defensible prepositions have ya got?
stevewodil 8y ago
Weird, since typically the issue is seen in reverse where leftist views don't hold up to statistics and logic. Check out some of Ben Shapiro's talks, or Crowder's 'Change my mind' series
- the_gastropod 8y ago
  Ah, yes. Let's review a few classic "leftist" views, and see if they hold up: 1. Single payer healthcare is both more effective and cheaper than the for-profit model we have now. [1] 2. Climate change is both actually happening and is largely caused by human activity. [I really hope I don't need to cite this...] 3. Gun control tends to lower gun violence. [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/upshot/why-single-payer-health-care-saves-money.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/upshot/why-single-payer-h... [2] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/gun-control-washington-post https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/g...
  - monksy 8y ago
    > 1. Single payer healthcare is both more effective and cheaper than the for-profit model we have now. [1] Personally, I agree with this one, if they're done right. (I think Germany is the best one in the western world) [One conservative view] This won't be done right in the context of the US given it's size and demand on it's people. (That also is where the anti-big gov arguement comes from as well) There is also a bit of FUD in reguards to it's change to the economy after implementation. [Higher taxes and a higher COL] (There are many other _good_ arguements against it.. such as the right to conduct business without government interference.. but see Ben Shapiro for that) > 2. Climate change is both actually happening and is largely caused by human activity. Most of the anti-climate change arguments that I've seen on this stem on weird twisting of data. I haven't seen a lot of solutions on the otherside. So that's equally weird and it just seems that people are yelling to convince some government body to "do something." (Whether it's effective or not.. that's a VERY big concern) > 3. Gun control tends to lower gun violence. It depends on context. There are many cases where this fails. (IL being one of those [it's easier to buy in IN].. since you can get and transport a firearm with different gun control requirements across the border). This goes for Canada, US, and Mexico. (Although if you enforce the borders strictly you can maintain gun control) The issue with this: Gun control is more restrictive on those who wish to legally use firearms, but barely does much to inhibit those who intend to use them illegally.
  - hackeraccount 8y ago
    1. call the current way healthcare is delivered in this country "for-profit" is stealing a base. It's truer to say it's a heavily regulated sector with public and private elements. If you're not happy with the status quo you could increase the public part of increase the private part. It seems unfair to increase the public role, continue to complain about the situation and then propose increasing the public part still more to fix those problems.
  - stevewodil 8y ago
    LOL CITES VOX AS A SOURCE. Enjoy your bubble! https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/vox-media#section-investors https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/vox-media#section-in...
monksy 8y ago
You've pointed out exactly the issue. It's a lack of diversity in thought and consideration of ideas that you disagree with. That should be the whole point of college. (An understanding of where the knowledge came from, how it's formed, and how to work with new ideas [even if they're wrong] If someone's idea doesn't hold up to scrutiny, academically speaking, you should identify it as such. The danger of labeling and avoiding ideas you don't like, in this case: conservatives, you're being intellectually dishonest and you're prone to basis.
weberc2 8y ago
Is this true across the board? I can think of a handful of popular tropes where this is true, like climate change skepticism, but even this comes in degrees ranging from conservatives who agree that climate change is real and needs action to those who agree it's real but are skeptical about the long term consequences to those who think that climate change is real but not man-made to those who think it's not real at all. Other popular examples are just evangelical beliefs projected to conservatives en masse (e.g., creationism). I guess conservatives seem pretty ideologically diverse, so maybe it would be helpful to specify which ideas in particular are keeping conservatives out of the academy?
- jchanimal 8y ago
  Ok I’ll bite. Another unsubstantiated conservative canard: taxes are bad. When in fact highly redistributive polices are correlated with all-boats-rising economic tides. “But who cares if we are all worse off, taxes are theft,” whines the conservative. Cry me a river, it was always already the government’s money.
  - warrenm 8y ago
    > it was always already the government’s money Sounds like you went to the same fallacious economic school Elizabeth Warren did
    - jchanimal 8y ago
      I'm not the one choosing to fetishize some government's money.
      - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        You're the one choosing to fetishize a soundbite that most consider to be clearly wrong, if not completely insane. Merely repeating it is not a good persuasion tactic.
  - weberc2 8y ago
    > “But who cares if we are all worse off, taxes are theft,” whines the conservative You're proving my point. This is a fringe conservative position (conservatives are okay with taxes for critical infrastructure, national defense, some minimal social safety net, etc), but you're using that brush to paint all conservatives. Sadly, portraying moderates as extremists has become a goto debate tactic for the left wing, and it's frankly _boring_ never mind morally repugnant.
Omnius 8y ago
Interesting blanket statement if not completely false. The only thing you can sort of assume is that those with liberal/left leanings are more likely to be teachers.

viggity 8y ago

that the only diversity that administrators care about is diversity of (largely) indelible characteristics (skin color, sexual orientation, etc), instead of diversity of thought. I'd much rather go to a school where everyone looked the same but thought different, than a school where everyone looked different but thought the same.

tiglionabbit 8y ago
He complains about some events. He doesn't propose alternative events. What sort of events would exist if the administrators were more conservative?
sebular 8y ago
You contradict yourself. You imagine a school where everyone looks the same but thinks "different", and yet by your own definition that school doesn't have any women, blacks, gays, etc. How would that work? Do you imagine an academy of straight white men, some of which serve as delegates for the types of thought that emerge from groups that aren't allowed to attend? Your line of reasoning is the perfect example of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance "Why are you tolerant people so intolerant of my desire for a world without all this tolerance? I thought you hypocrites were tolerant!!"
- viggity 8y ago
  in my hypothetical, I don't care what they look like, they could all be asian lesbians. There are conservative asian lesbians. There are liberal asian lesbians. Poor. Rich. Urban. Rural. From America. From Europe. ad infinitum. As long there is a good mix of backgrounds and ideologies. I will very much take that environment over a rainbow coalition will make attempts to ruin someone who dares disagree with the hivemind. Regarding tolerance - you do not see conservatives trying to no-platform liberals, but I could get you 100 examples of college liberals trying to no-platform conservatives. Who exactly are the tolerant ones? Did you see what happened to Bret Weinstein at Evergreen College? He is an ostensibly liberal guy, and what happened to him should send a shiver down the leg of anyone who is remotely interested in a free exchange of ideas.