7 ms·

Show HN: How to start a business in France

78 points by maelito 8y ago

Hacker News loves talking about the state of startups in France [1], and the particularities of our social security system [2]. There is no official answer in English on the Web to the question "how to start a company in France", so we've built a website to guide you through it with as little headache as possible. https://mycompanyinfrance.fr https://mycompanyinfrance.fr It's open-source software [3] built inside the French public startup incubator, beta.gouv.fr. For those interested : does it convey most of the information you need ? What's missing ? It's the first iteration, and we're planning many new features. [1]: Startup nation ? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18066248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18066248 [2]: The French healtcare and pay as you go pension systems are also regularly discussed e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12998163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12998163 [3]: Source: https://github.com/betagouv/syso/ https://github.com/betagouv/syso/

euph0ria 8y ago
Would be great to understand more about accounting requirements, recurring filings, costs of preparing and filing these and the business tax system in general. Also, are there any other demanding/taxis laws for a company with let's say 4 employees. What about sick leave, what about parental leave? What about if the first hire is underperforming, can you easily get rid of that person etc (important in startups with a handful of employees)? At least in my case, I would want some information regarding that so I could decide if incorporating in France is a good idea, compared to let's say Estonia or the US.
JPLeRouzic 8y ago
I am French and I applaud at any initiative to help the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)! 1. But even if my browser is set to English, I see French on https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ and most of the issues on the Github repository are written in French! What signal do you want to send? 2. As one can find on "https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/" https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/" the employee gets only half of what the employer pays. Contrary to what is stated on the same site, one employee does not get much benefit of what the employer pays for her retirements and healthcare, because: * if she is hired now, there is a good probability that she will have only a little retirement pension in 40 years, even if the law does not change. (probably close to the minimum salary, at least I hope so). So all this considerable amount of money will be wasted in the state and the "sécurité sociale" deep pockets. * It is the same for the health fund: What makes the French health system seems free for workers, is that they have a mandatory mutual [0] which pays for most of the costs. The "Social security" pays around of 10% of most usual costs, the mutual fund pays the rest... Most French companies are trying hard to use other schemes for paying better their employees, for example because they have some company investment fund, but "shut...". [0] This website is provided by the URSSAF, the French social security contributions collector"
- roma1n 8y ago
  > The "Social security" pays around of 10% of most usual costs, the mutual fund pays the rest... What? The basic insurance scheme pays at least 60% of a set of reasonable, negotiated fees and the "mutuelle" covers the rest. There are a few corner cases (complicated dental work, optics) but these are being addressed. Usually the out-of-pocket expense is minimal to nil (a "forfait moderateur" of around 1 euro per doctor's appointment for instance)
  - JPLeRouzic 8y ago
    Please... Have you had to pay for glasses, dentistry, hearing aids? Even the current president acknowledges what I said (which is a fresh start)
- nodefourtytwo 8y ago
  Why spreading FUD? Social security paid for 76% of all medical costs in 2014 (last numbers I could find). 92% of hospital bills 64% of doctors visits 62% of drugs, glasses and such. Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protection-sociale/risque-sante/depenses-sante/quelle-est-part-securite-sociale-financement-consommation-soins-biens-medicaux.html http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protectio... You also have a very simplistic way of understanding how our retirement pension system works and the role it has in the society.
  - JPLeRouzic 8y ago
    > Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. Not paying at the pharmacy does not mean that you do not pay at all. You pay three times: Your employer pays for you a huge amount, you pay (look at your payroll), your mutual fund pays. Most people pay much more indirectly during their life than they receive services through the SS.
    - nodefourtytwo 8y ago
nodefourtytwo 8y ago
This is amazing. I wish such site was available in french when I created my company, you should consider it.
- maelito 8y ago
  Thanks ! That's our next step. Looking for a way to translate it in a collaborative Web interface.
DreamyCori 8y ago
Before considering creating a company in France, check the position of this country in the 'Employment flexibility index 2018' [1]. France has the worst ranking... Before doing this kind of marketing, do the essential updates first and companies will blossom all over the country. [1]: https://en.llri.lt/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Employment-Flexibility-Index-2018_-LFMI.pdf https://en.llri.lt/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Employment-Fle...
- jlengrand 8y ago
  Maybe the author doesn't have the power to do said updates :). Does a low flexibility index indicate that companies should not be opened in France, or even considered? Your point is totally valid, however I don't see how it invalidates what OP worked on
  - DreamyCori 8y ago
    Reality always comes back to snag you out of delusion. And reality is that France is not attractive. Without core modifications this kind of initiative will be close to useless. (I'm one of many french engineers who left France to have a decent career)
    - jlengrand 8y ago
      Same here. I left because France is not attractive indeed. And I also agree core changes are needed to make France attractive for entrepreneurs. At the same time, the points that OP makes are still valid :). For someone that wants to open a company, social aids and healthcare access can matter. Other countries are more open than France is, but it doesn't make France a black hole where nobody can make a good career. The Paris tech scene is most alive.
      - DreamyCori 8y ago
        You're right that this initiative is one step in the right direction. I don't want my comments perceived as too negative. I'm one of the people singing "Let's make France great again!"
nerbert 8y ago
France is a fantastic country to start a company: very little things to pay until you actually make a profit, company creation process is easy, consequences for failure are very low to inexistant if you’re a startup. And the state is there to help you get all kind of loans by offering guarantees to the banks for you.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Firing people is ridiculously hard in France. I would say quite an important point in case startup experiences anything else but ideal logarithmic growth, actually even in that case (realizing somebody wasn't a great hire after trial period)
  - remify 8y ago
    It's hard if you don't have a good reason. I think the economic instability in a startup (a real one) would allow more freedom.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    What about using consultants, it might be easier to "hire/fire" them?
    - saiya-jin 8y ago
      This is what I would expect, but in some places state tries hard to force self-employed consultants into permanent positions (not sure how France works in this regard). And if you mean external company consultants, they are not much cheaper.
      - baud147258 8y ago
        I was thinking about external company consultant, since I have more experience with that type than self-employed (I'm a consultant, working for a big French consulting firm (Alten)). Also I think there's more available company consultant than self-employed consultants in France. I agree that external company consultant are more expensive than employees, but on the other hand it's much more flexible than employees. > in some places state tries hard to force self-employed consultants into permanent positions I don't think that France is trying to do that, but it's from talking to a half-dozen of self-employed consultant, so anecdote, not checking the legislation. Still in France, regarding consultants, there's a limit on how long a consultant can stay in the same mission, I think that beyond three years, the law state that they should become employee where they are really working. But I don't know how much it is applied.
tripue 8y ago
Very cool ! Seeing the french gov having a post on hn is amazing !
jypepin 8y ago
Looking at the cost of hiring, it's crazy to see that the employee only gets ~50% (or even less as the salary grows) than what the employer pays. This makes it very expensive for an employer to pay their employees well, and explains very well why salaries are so low in France. Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already.
- realusername 8y ago
  That's because in France you get indirect salary as well whereas in other countries you have to pay some of those things from the indirect salary from your own pocket. To compare to a US salary, I would personally add 30 to 40% to those raw figures to reflect external costs. > Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already. No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees where you can fire at will and then once it's over, you can still do it but you need to motivate your decision & respect the process.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    > No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism.
    - realusername 8y ago
      > The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. Yes exactly, that's pretty fair, if the employer can fire at-will, the employee can leave quickly as well, it's flexibility on both sides. > In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism. Yes indeed that's exactly that.
nakedrobot2 8y ago
In Europe you can't fire employees. It makes it nearly impossible to run a startup. It is the very antithesis of running a startup. Unless you get lucky and can survive by hiring contractors, just forget about starting a startup in Europe. Source: 2 startups in Europe.
- pjc50 8y ago
  You can, you just need to do it through the performance management or redundancy processes and not on a whim. You can also usually have "probation" periods of six months or so. (also "Europe" is a large place, could you be more specific?)
- sashimy 8y ago
  First of all, why do you need to fire employees to run a startup ? I don't think this is a major need in the development of a startup in fact firing someone is dangerous since you lose experience and knowledge. France as many countries in Europe have laws that protect employees against abuse from companies but you can still fire someone if there is a reason it is just regulated.
- Majestic121 8y ago
  You can fire at will for the first 4 month, renewable once, so practically 8 month, for IT people. It's plenty of time to determine whether someone is fit for a job or not. If you want to fire someone after those 8 month, you indeed have to justify your decision (economical, huge mistake from the employee, common accord) and follow the process, but it's doable as long as you actually have a justification
pjc50 8y ago
I'm slightly surprised to see that not only is this in English but there isn't even an obvious option to switch it to French. That's pretty un-French in the first place. It's interesting to read the SARL process and compare it with the UK one: https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation In the UK, not only is a company bank account not a prerequisite, it's the other way round - you form the company first. There's no requirement to notify a newspaper. There's no minimum capital requirement. The minimum filing requirements are pretty light. The more I think about social security requirements, the more I think they should just be paid out of general taxation and not entangled with a particular relationship of "employment".
- kmlx 8y ago
  “There's no requirement to notify a newspaper.” :) what is this nonsense?
  - chomp 8y ago
    There's some places around the world (including some places in the U.S., I think New York is one of them) where if you form a corporation, you have to publicize it in a newspaper. It can be expensive.
- etiennemarcel 8y ago
  > The more I think about social security requirements, the more I think they should just be paid out of general taxation and not entangled with a particular relationship of "employment". In France they are too, with the CSG and CRDS.
  - daxat_staglatz 8y ago
    Interestingly (?), courts disagree about the legal nature of the CSG/CRDS (see [0] for some information): - According to the Cour de Cassation, it is both a tax and a social contribution - According to the Conseil Constitutionnel, it is a tax - According to the Conseil d'Etat and the EUCJ, it is a social contribution [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contribution_sociale_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ralis%C3%A9e#Nature_de_la_contribution https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contribution_sociale_g%C3%A9n%... Slightly off topic but for foreigners who are interested, the welfare state (called Social Security, the word thus a much broader sense than in the US context) in France has been created as a separate entity from the Government. It is managed by workers' representatives and employers' representatives. Since, in the end, it is the Governement (the Parliament, to be exact) that make laws, including those related to the Social Security, it has as much power over this sytem as it wants. Nonetheless, this leads France to have technically two different budgets - the Government one and the Social Security one - with their own bills and two systems of taxation - social contributions, which go to the Social Security budget; and taxes, which go to the Government budget. OVertime, social contributions - which are computed on labor income - have been cut, especially for low wage earners. The shortfall in financing has been partly compensated by transferring tax revenues to the Social Security. This leads to weird public accounting and public debate: for instance, there is much talk about the Social Security deficit or even specific branches of the Social Security (since they are all financed by their social contribution), missing the fact that it reflects completely arbitrary ways to earmarked specific taxes to different part of the Government. Another example of weirdness in the public debate because of this is the enormous importance of the "income tax" in the public debate, and especially that few households pay it and most of the money comes from a minority of household ... but the "income tax" actually brings _less_ money than the CSG, which is a tax on income that is different thatn "the income tax" (impôt sur le revenu). Because of the names and the arbitrary accounting practices, the vast majority of income taxation is completely out of the public debate radar.
earthscienceman 8y ago
Huh. This is really interesting. I'm currently living in Paris and have been talking to my (French) girlfriend about starting a business. Does anyone know of any other good resources?
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
"any idiot can start a business, but it takes a genius to exit one without harm" --unknown
kmlx 8y ago
what are the advantages of opening an llc in france compared to the US/UK/HK? what about taxation? how easy can I take money out of the company? how easy is it to close a business? couldn’t find anything on the website. is there a gov.uk equivalent i could check?
- maelito 8y ago
  Taxation is one of our next features. How can the director pay itself (salary, dividends) is also on the list.
mabynogy 8y ago
Congrats for the successful Show HN maelito. If you're located near Paris, we are starting a new meetup about programming and startups. The first drink will be held the 6 november near Bastille (where the French Revolution started): http://meetup.com/dailyprog/events/tmsrjqyxpbjb http://meetup.com/dailyprog/events/tmsrjqyxpbjb I hope some people from Beta Gouv will come. I do my best to promote that new community (especially towards VCs). Feedbacks and insights are welcome :-)
jgh 8y ago
I went through this process myself recently and found it to be pretty challenging to understand the differences between the company types - particularly since my french is still pretty weak. This is a great resource though, wish I knew about it sooner!
zhte415 8y ago
This is useful and very smooth. Taking it for a test-run and as this is Show HN I'm not being picky, just some feedback. On 'How much does it cost to hire?' https://mycompanyinfrance.fr/social-security https://mycompanyinfrance.fr/social-security * I love that you can just choose one on the 4 input boxes and the others calculate. Lots of flexibility to let the user focus on what input they have and answer they want * There's not an indication whether figures input are on a monthly basis, annual, or other. This affects the tax calculation: Entering 300, 3000, 30000 gets non-linear scaled results - major * When re-clicking a field, previously entered digits need to be manually deleted rather than the field resetting - minor just my preference * The breakdown of where contributions go lower down the page is great * I'd input an existing French company that came to mind. Finding the 'This is not my company' link took a few minutes - minor There is a fastidious amount of detail. You seem to have been very thorough e.g. bicycle allowance. Does France also have tax, social insurance or benefit differences between cities/regions? Is it material? Is it worth the time/cost to manage? On the reverse side, does France provide incentives regionally or based on city for starting companies? For the above couple of questions, my context for asking: I live in China and there's a lot of interest/very simple questions about tax that individuals and companies have. A handful of consultancies put online calculators for things like employment cost online and cover major cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, perhaps Hangzhou and similar) where social insurance contributions may vary. They do this for free as a lead for their consultancy practices. They don't put calculators online for things like city- industry- specific incentives because this is a moving playing field with hundreds of cities moving incentive goalposts each month, it isn't practical to be accurate. Are you looking for synergies with not only demystifying social security, but for example 'find an accountant' and 'find an office'. The potential for rabbit holes could be large, but also a very nice one-stop hosted CaaS (Company as a Service).
matt_the_bass 8y ago
One nice feature to consider adding is linking to the official French regulations for each item you explain in English. This would be helpful for someone like me who can read French but doesn’t know where to look. To me this would add a level of trust to your comments/Advice.

78 points by maelito 8y ago

euph0ria 8y ago

Would be great to understand more about accounting requirements, recurring filings, costs of preparing and filing these and the business tax system in general. Also, are there any other demanding/taxis laws for a company with let's say 4 employees. What about sick leave, what about parental leave? What about if the first hire is underperforming, can you easily get rid of that person etc (important in startups with a handful of employees)? At least in my case, I would want some information regarding that so I could decide if incorporating in France is a good idea, compared to let's say Estonia or the US.

JPLeRouzic 8y ago

I am French and I applaud at any initiative to help the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)! 1. But even if my browser is set to English, I see French on https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ and most of the issues on the Github repository are written in French! What signal do you want to send? 2. As one can find on "https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/" https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/" the employee gets only half of what the employer pays. Contrary to what is stated on the same site, one employee does not get much benefit of what the employer pays for her retirements and healthcare, because: * if she is hired now, there is a good probability that she will have only a little retirement pension in 40 years, even if the law does not change. (probably close to the minimum salary, at least I hope so). So all this considerable amount of money will be wasted in the state and the "sécurité sociale" deep pockets. * It is the same for the health fund: What makes the French health system seems free for workers, is that they have a mandatory mutual [0] which pays for most of the costs. The "Social security" pays around of 10% of most usual costs, the mutual fund pays the rest... Most French companies are trying hard to use other schemes for paying better their employees, for example because they have some company investment fund, but "shut...". [0] This website is provided by the URSSAF, the French social security contributions collector"

roma1n 8y ago
> The "Social security" pays around of 10% of most usual costs, the mutual fund pays the rest... What? The basic insurance scheme pays at least 60% of a set of reasonable, negotiated fees and the "mutuelle" covers the rest. There are a few corner cases (complicated dental work, optics) but these are being addressed. Usually the out-of-pocket expense is minimal to nil (a "forfait moderateur" of around 1 euro per doctor's appointment for instance)
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  Please... Have you had to pay for glasses, dentistry, hearing aids? Even the current president acknowledges what I said (which is a fresh start)
nodefourtytwo 8y ago
Why spreading FUD? Social security paid for 76% of all medical costs in 2014 (last numbers I could find). 92% of hospital bills 64% of doctors visits 62% of drugs, glasses and such. Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protection-sociale/risque-sante/depenses-sante/quelle-est-part-securite-sociale-financement-consommation-soins-biens-medicaux.html http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte-institutions/protectio... You also have a very simplistic way of understanding how our retirement pension system works and the role it has in the society.
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  > Most prescribed drugs by your doctor being reimbursed 100% you don't even have to pay at the pharmacy. Not paying at the pharmacy does not mean that you do not pay at all. You pay three times: Your employer pays for you a huge amount, you pay (look at your payroll), your mutual fund pays. Most people pay much more indirectly during their life than they receive services through the SS.
  - nodefourtytwo 8y ago

nodefourtytwo 8y ago

This is amazing. I wish such site was available in french when I created my company, you should consider it.

maelito 8y ago
Thanks ! That's our next step. Looking for a way to translate it in a collaborative Web interface.

DreamyCori 8y ago

Before considering creating a company in France, check the position of this country in the 'Employment flexibility index 2018' [1]. France has the worst ranking... Before doing this kind of marketing, do the essential updates first and companies will blossom all over the country. [1]: https://en.llri.lt/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Employment-Flexibility-Index-2018_-LFMI.pdf https://en.llri.lt/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Employment-Fle...

jlengrand 8y ago
Maybe the author doesn't have the power to do said updates :). Does a low flexibility index indicate that companies should not be opened in France, or even considered? Your point is totally valid, however I don't see how it invalidates what OP worked on
- DreamyCori 8y ago
  Reality always comes back to snag you out of delusion. And reality is that France is not attractive. Without core modifications this kind of initiative will be close to useless. (I'm one of many french engineers who left France to have a decent career)
  - jlengrand 8y ago
    Same here. I left because France is not attractive indeed. And I also agree core changes are needed to make France attractive for entrepreneurs. At the same time, the points that OP makes are still valid :). For someone that wants to open a company, social aids and healthcare access can matter. Other countries are more open than France is, but it doesn't make France a black hole where nobody can make a good career. The Paris tech scene is most alive.
    - DreamyCori 8y ago
      You're right that this initiative is one step in the right direction. I don't want my comments perceived as too negative. I'm one of the people singing "Let's make France great again!"

nerbert 8y ago

France is a fantastic country to start a company: very little things to pay until you actually make a profit, company creation process is easy, consequences for failure are very low to inexistant if you’re a startup. And the state is there to help you get all kind of loans by offering guarantees to the banks for you.

saiya-jin 8y ago
Firing people is ridiculously hard in France. I would say quite an important point in case startup experiences anything else but ideal logarithmic growth, actually even in that case (realizing somebody wasn't a great hire after trial period)
- remify 8y ago
  It's hard if you don't have a good reason. I think the economic instability in a startup (a real one) would allow more freedom.
- baud147258 8y ago
  What about using consultants, it might be easier to "hire/fire" them?
  - saiya-jin 8y ago
    This is what I would expect, but in some places state tries hard to force self-employed consultants into permanent positions (not sure how France works in this regard). And if you mean external company consultants, they are not much cheaper.
    - baud147258 8y ago
      I was thinking about external company consultant, since I have more experience with that type than self-employed (I'm a consultant, working for a big French consulting firm (Alten)). Also I think there's more available company consultant than self-employed consultants in France. I agree that external company consultant are more expensive than employees, but on the other hand it's much more flexible than employees. > in some places state tries hard to force self-employed consultants into permanent positions I don't think that France is trying to do that, but it's from talking to a half-dozen of self-employed consultant, so anecdote, not checking the legislation. Still in France, regarding consultants, there's a limit on how long a consultant can stay in the same mission, I think that beyond three years, the law state that they should become employee where they are really working. But I don't know how much it is applied.

tripue 8y ago

Very cool ! Seeing the french gov having a post on hn is amazing !

jypepin 8y ago

Looking at the cost of hiring, it's crazy to see that the employee only gets ~50% (or even less as the salary grows) than what the employer pays. This makes it very expensive for an employer to pay their employees well, and explains very well why salaries are so low in France. Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already.

realusername 8y ago
That's because in France you get indirect salary as well whereas in other countries you have to pay some of those things from the indirect salary from your own pocket. To compare to a US salary, I would personally add 30 to 40% to those raw figures to reflect external costs. > Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already. No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees where you can fire at will and then once it's over, you can still do it but you need to motivate your decision & respect the process.
- baud147258 8y ago
  > No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism.
  - realusername 8y ago
    > The trial period go both way: the employee can choose to leave very easily. We had one such case where I'm working, the employee left before the 6-months period was finished. Yes exactly, that's pretty fair, if the employer can fire at-will, the employee can leave quickly as well, it's flexibility on both sides. > In addition to firing, it exists legal possibilities to cancel the employee/employer contract if both side agree on it ("rupture conventionnelle"), if I've understood the mechanism. Yes indeed that's exactly that.

nakedrobot2 8y ago

In Europe you can't fire employees. It makes it nearly impossible to run a startup. It is the very antithesis of running a startup. Unless you get lucky and can survive by hiring contractors, just forget about starting a startup in Europe. Source: 2 startups in Europe.

pjc50 8y ago
You can, you just need to do it through the performance management or redundancy processes and not on a whim. You can also usually have "probation" periods of six months or so. (also "Europe" is a large place, could you be more specific?)
sashimy 8y ago
First of all, why do you need to fire employees to run a startup ? I don't think this is a major need in the development of a startup in fact firing someone is dangerous since you lose experience and knowledge. France as many countries in Europe have laws that protect employees against abuse from companies but you can still fire someone if there is a reason it is just regulated.
Majestic121 8y ago
You can fire at will for the first 4 month, renewable once, so practically 8 month, for IT people. It's plenty of time to determine whether someone is fit for a job or not. If you want to fire someone after those 8 month, you indeed have to justify your decision (economical, huge mistake from the employee, common accord) and follow the process, but it's doable as long as you actually have a justification

pjc50 8y ago

I'm slightly surprised to see that not only is this in English but there isn't even an obvious option to switch it to French. That's pretty un-French in the first place. It's interesting to read the SARL process and compare it with the UK one: https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation In the UK, not only is a company bank account not a prerequisite, it's the other way round - you form the company first. There's no requirement to notify a newspaper. There's no minimum capital requirement. The minimum filing requirements are pretty light. The more I think about social security requirements, the more I think they should just be paid out of general taxation and not entangled with a particular relationship of "employment".

kmlx 8y ago
“There's no requirement to notify a newspaper.” :) what is this nonsense?
- chomp 8y ago
  There's some places around the world (including some places in the U.S., I think New York is one of them) where if you form a corporation, you have to publicize it in a newspaper. It can be expensive.
etiennemarcel 8y ago
> The more I think about social security requirements, the more I think they should just be paid out of general taxation and not entangled with a particular relationship of "employment". In France they are too, with the CSG and CRDS.
- daxat_staglatz 8y ago
  Interestingly (?), courts disagree about the legal nature of the CSG/CRDS (see [0] for some information): - According to the Cour de Cassation, it is both a tax and a social contribution - According to the Conseil Constitutionnel, it is a tax - According to the Conseil d'Etat and the EUCJ, it is a social contribution [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contribution_sociale_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ralis%C3%A9e#Nature_de_la_contribution https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contribution_sociale_g%C3%A9n%... Slightly off topic but for foreigners who are interested, the welfare state (called Social Security, the word thus a much broader sense than in the US context) in France has been created as a separate entity from the Government. It is managed by workers' representatives and employers' representatives. Since, in the end, it is the Governement (the Parliament, to be exact) that make laws, including those related to the Social Security, it has as much power over this sytem as it wants. Nonetheless, this leads France to have technically two different budgets - the Government one and the Social Security one - with their own bills and two systems of taxation - social contributions, which go to the Social Security budget; and taxes, which go to the Government budget. OVertime, social contributions - which are computed on labor income - have been cut, especially for low wage earners. The shortfall in financing has been partly compensated by transferring tax revenues to the Social Security. This leads to weird public accounting and public debate: for instance, there is much talk about the Social Security deficit or even specific branches of the Social Security (since they are all financed by their social contribution), missing the fact that it reflects completely arbitrary ways to earmarked specific taxes to different part of the Government. Another example of weirdness in the public debate because of this is the enormous importance of the "income tax" in the public debate, and especially that few households pay it and most of the money comes from a minority of household ... but the "income tax" actually brings _less_ money than the CSG, which is a tax on income that is different thatn "the income tax" (impôt sur le revenu). Because of the names and the arbitrary accounting practices, the vast majority of income taxation is completely out of the public debate radar.

earthscienceman 8y ago

Huh. This is really interesting. I'm currently living in Paris and have been talking to my (French) girlfriend about starting a business. Does anyone know of any other good resources?

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

"any idiot can start a business, but it takes a genius to exit one without harm" --unknown

kmlx 8y ago

what are the advantages of opening an llc in france compared to the US/UK/HK? what about taxation? how easy can I take money out of the company? how easy is it to close a business? couldn’t find anything on the website. is there a gov.uk equivalent i could check?

maelito 8y ago
Taxation is one of our next features. How can the director pay itself (salary, dividends) is also on the list.

mabynogy 8y ago

Congrats for the successful Show HN maelito. If you're located near Paris, we are starting a new meetup about programming and startups. The first drink will be held the 6 november near Bastille (where the French Revolution started): http://meetup.com/dailyprog/events/tmsrjqyxpbjb http://meetup.com/dailyprog/events/tmsrjqyxpbjb I hope some people from Beta Gouv will come. I do my best to promote that new community (especially towards VCs). Feedbacks and insights are welcome :-)

jgh 8y ago

I went through this process myself recently and found it to be pretty challenging to understand the differences between the company types - particularly since my french is still pretty weak. This is a great resource though, wish I knew about it sooner!

zhte415 8y ago

This is useful and very smooth. Taking it for a test-run and as this is Show HN I'm not being picky, just some feedback. On 'How much does it cost to hire?' https://mycompanyinfrance.fr/social-security https://mycompanyinfrance.fr/social-security * I love that you can just choose one on the 4 input boxes and the others calculate. Lots of flexibility to let the user focus on what input they have and answer they want * There's not an indication whether figures input are on a monthly basis, annual, or other. This affects the tax calculation: Entering 300, 3000, 30000 gets non-linear scaled results - major * When re-clicking a field, previously entered digits need to be manually deleted rather than the field resetting - minor just my preference * The breakdown of where contributions go lower down the page is great * I'd input an existing French company that came to mind. Finding the 'This is not my company' link took a few minutes - minor There is a fastidious amount of detail. You seem to have been very thorough e.g. bicycle allowance. Does France also have tax, social insurance or benefit differences between cities/regions? Is it material? Is it worth the time/cost to manage? On the reverse side, does France provide incentives regionally or based on city for starting companies? For the above couple of questions, my context for asking: I live in China and there's a lot of interest/very simple questions about tax that individuals and companies have. A handful of consultancies put online calculators for things like employment cost online and cover major cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, perhaps Hangzhou and similar) where social insurance contributions may vary. They do this for free as a lead for their consultancy practices. They don't put calculators online for things like city- industry- specific incentives because this is a moving playing field with hundreds of cities moving incentive goalposts each month, it isn't practical to be accurate. Are you looking for synergies with not only demystifying social security, but for example 'find an accountant' and 'find an office'. The potential for rabbit holes could be large, but also a very nice one-stop hosted CaaS (Company as a Service).

matt_the_bass 8y ago

One nice feature to consider adding is linking to the official French regulations for each item you explain in English. This would be helpful for someone like me who can read French but doesn’t know where to look. To me this would add a level of trust to your comments/Advice.