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Let's assume I'm running a commercially-available web application. I'm not reselling mongo as a service, but I'm using mongo in my stack. My web application arg

by pfooti 8y ago

Let's assume I'm running a commercially-available web application. I'm not reselling mongo as a service, but I'm using mongo in my stack. My web application arguably "... primarily derives from the value of the Program ..." because it is really just a mongoose crud layer on top of your mongo that serves up a dating service for ferrets or whatever. My dating site derives a lot of value from the mongo data layer. I understand and empathize with the problems of creating and monetizing OSS in a SaaS world, but ultimately, I'm not confident one can write a license that focus-targets SaaS vendors without potentially exposing just plain mongo users to the same litigation. I mean, the intent here is to make the mongo company more profitable, right? Like: we want to get our cut from SaaS vendors who are selling mongo. So when that dries up, who is to say you won't go after self-hosters as well? This whole thing is super-scary to small shops who don't want to find themselves on the hook for a commercial hosting license. It just doesn't feel like open source anymore.

nemo44x 8y ago
You're not offering MongoDB as a service though. I think that part is pretty explicit. > It just doesn't feel like open source anymore. I guess it depends on what generation you come from. The GPL was far more popular when I was coming up where as today the Apache License seems to be more popular. They have very different philosophies. I for one see no issue with companies that have invested a lot of money into OSS protect themselves from mega corporations which contribute nothing to the project and simply exploit it. This is more dangerous as the project we all take for granted could then dry up and then we're left with a mega corporation cloud provider offering that isn't interested in improving the software I use.
- pfooti 8y ago
  > You're not offering MongoDB as a service though. I think that part is pretty explicit. I agree that I feel like I'm not offering it as a service, but according to your quote, "Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" And that does not actually map on to how I would define "offering the program as a service". I think with that definition it would not be difficult to argue that my ferrets using a webapp are "third parties interacting with a modified version of the program remotely through a computer network", because that is in fact what they are doing. The fact that this might seem like a ridiculous twisting of the intent of "offering as a service" is somewhat immaterial. I'm old enough to have lived through the SCO trial. Companies and their lawyers, when the company is in need of ready cash, will do a lot of shaking of the couch cushions for loose change, and that includes changing how they interpret previously-acceptable behavior with their software. Even if one argued that my ferret dating site was offering "value which primarily derives from the value of mongo" and failed to win that suit in the courts, I'd still have lost here - I'd still be on the hook for actually defending myself (or just give in to the hypothesized shakedown). These are all the fears about open source that came from that first SCO trial and persisted via FUD from the 90s version of microsoft: that using open source platforms somehow opens corporations to legal liability, and it was (in part) to allay those fears that the OSI arose. That's why I'm concerned about this development. I could be 100% overreacting here, but at the end of the day I am not convinced (with either this or the Redis module license thing) that it is possible to micro-target classical SaaS providers with a commercial-only license situation without collateral damage to self-hosters.
  - nemo44x 8y ago
    Similarly things happened when MySQL was an independent company in need of cash. Because the license was GPL and GPL law wasn't well established yet they were able to shakedown some companies using MySQL with veiled threats of GPL violations. MongoDB client drivers are all Apache however. But yes, I feel you have valid reasons to be concerned.
metheus 8y ago
To add to nemo44x's response... > but ultimately, I'm not confident one can write a license that focus-targets SaaS vendors without potentially exposing just plain mongo users to the same litigation. I completely understand your trepidation, but I hope I can set your mind at ease about that. From our FAQ (https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license/faq https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license...): > What are the implications of this new license on applications built using MongoDB and made available as a service (SaaS)? > The copyleft condition of Section 13 of the SSPL applies only when you are offering the functionality of MongoDB, or modified versions of MongoDB, to third parties as a service. There is no copyleft condition for other SaaS applications that use MongoDB as a database.

by pfooti 8y ago

nemo44x 8y ago

You're not offering MongoDB as a service though. I think that part is pretty explicit. > It just doesn't feel like open source anymore. I guess it depends on what generation you come from. The GPL was far more popular when I was coming up where as today the Apache License seems to be more popular. They have very different philosophies. I for one see no issue with companies that have invested a lot of money into OSS protect themselves from mega corporations which contribute nothing to the project and simply exploit it. This is more dangerous as the project we all take for granted could then dry up and then we're left with a mega corporation cloud provider offering that isn't interested in improving the software I use.

pfooti 8y ago
> You're not offering MongoDB as a service though. I think that part is pretty explicit. I agree that I feel like I'm not offering it as a service, but according to your quote, "Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" And that does not actually map on to how I would define "offering the program as a service". I think with that definition it would not be difficult to argue that my ferrets using a webapp are "third parties interacting with a modified version of the program remotely through a computer network", because that is in fact what they are doing. The fact that this might seem like a ridiculous twisting of the intent of "offering as a service" is somewhat immaterial. I'm old enough to have lived through the SCO trial. Companies and their lawyers, when the company is in need of ready cash, will do a lot of shaking of the couch cushions for loose change, and that includes changing how they interpret previously-acceptable behavior with their software. Even if one argued that my ferret dating site was offering "value which primarily derives from the value of mongo" and failed to win that suit in the courts, I'd still have lost here - I'd still be on the hook for actually defending myself (or just give in to the hypothesized shakedown). These are all the fears about open source that came from that first SCO trial and persisted via FUD from the 90s version of microsoft: that using open source platforms somehow opens corporations to legal liability, and it was (in part) to allay those fears that the OSI arose. That's why I'm concerned about this development. I could be 100% overreacting here, but at the end of the day I am not convinced (with either this or the Redis module license thing) that it is possible to micro-target classical SaaS providers with a commercial-only license situation without collateral damage to self-hosters.
- nemo44x 8y ago
  Similarly things happened when MySQL was an independent company in need of cash. Because the license was GPL and GPL law wasn't well established yet they were able to shakedown some companies using MySQL with veiled threats of GPL violations. MongoDB client drivers are all Apache however. But yes, I feel you have valid reasons to be concerned.

metheus 8y ago

To add to nemo44x's response... > but ultimately, I'm not confident one can write a license that focus-targets SaaS vendors without potentially exposing just plain mongo users to the same litigation. I completely understand your trepidation, but I hope I can set your mind at ease about that. From our FAQ (https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license/faq https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license...): > What are the implications of this new license on applications built using MongoDB and made available as a service (SaaS)? > The copyleft condition of Section 13 of the SSPL applies only when you are offering the functionality of MongoDB, or modified versions of MongoDB, to third parties as a service. There is no copyleft condition for other SaaS applications that use MongoDB as a database.