8 ms·

I'm fascinated by old stories. Stories are the oldest medium, and they've proven to be surprisingly good stores of information. Erik the Red was real, and he na

by netcan 8y ago

I'm fascinated by old stories. Stories are the oldest medium, and they've proven to be surprisingly good stores of information. Erik the Red was real, and he navigated to lands across the ocean just like the old stories said he did. I think the writer sells short the comparison of Homer to the bible. It goes a lot deeper than "the one book everyone knows." Homer is often thought to be describing events during the bronze dark age, the period between the collapse of middle eastern bronze age empires and the rise of iron age empires (like the greek one). This is what the bible is too, to a large extent. The exodus, judges, King David, prophets, heros... Stories about the legendary dark age written by decendants during the early iron age. As civilization (and population) re-grew these stories formed a cultural core. Judeans got swept into the aramean, babylonian, persian and later hellenic empires. The library of knowledge grew enourmously. But, the old stories still remained at the heart of the cultural. Something similar happenned in greece. Greeks civilisation grew. greek scholarship got advanced, and worldly. They later created a world empire, existed under the roman empire. Still the stories remained, a stable foundation for more culture to graft onto. In both cases, we have stories from the bronze age, that somehow remained important enough for 100 generations to remain at the heart of cultures today. Stories of desert nomads and aegean pirates on the margins of civilisation.

beaconstudios 8y ago
perhaps because the messages they carry transcend time. Fundamentally many of the old stories we still value have moral or philosophical components that are foundational to our cultures.
- watwut 8y ago
  What does that mean, practically? For Odysseus for example, what foundational message does it have? I read it and it was interesting and even fun, I don't know what philosophical or moral component you have in mind. It had nuanced characters, but even that seems to be ignored by our popular culture which focuses exclusively on sirens and such.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - artsandmeta 8y ago
    I think there are some morals in the Odyssey. For example, the assembly at Ithaca in book 2 provides some insight into justice in ancient Greece. Telemachus appears to escalate through three authorities. First, is his own strength, second is the people of Ithaca: Now we have no man like Odysseus in command to drive this curse from the house. We ourselves? We’re hardly the ones to fight them off. All we’d do is parade our wretched weakness. A boy inept at battle. Oh I’d swing to attach if I had the power in me. By god, it’s intolerable, what they do—disgrace, my house a shambles! You should be ashamed yourselves, mortified in the face of neighbors living round about! Fear the gods’ wrath—before they wheel in outrage and make these crimes recoil on your heads. (2.57-67) And when the towns people refuse to do anything, Telemachus escalates to the third authority—the gods: “But if you decide the fare is better, richer here, destroying one man’s goods and going scot-free, all right then, carve away! But I’ll cry out to the everlasting gods in hopes that Zeus will pay you back with a vengeance—all of you destroyed in my house while I go scot-free myself!” (2.141–5) It seems that fear of the gods was the main source of justice in Greek society. Since there were no contracts or court system to build trust between individuals, people relied on oaths—and the fear of the gods if one broke their oath—to build trust. Similarly, if one could not find justice through strength of your fellow men, you could threaten the wrongdoers with a curse. If they feared the gods, they make respond. In such a society an atheist or godless person could not be trusted. Right after Telemachus threatens the suitors with a curse, Zeus sends a sign down in the form of two eagles. One of the old townsmen, who excelled in reading omens and bird signs, said that the eagles were a sign from Zeus that the suitors would get what is coming to them. And the suitors respond: “Stop, old man!” Eurymachus, Polybus’ son, rose up to take him on. “Go home and babble your omens to your children— save them from some catastrophe coming soon. I’m a better hand than you at reading portents. Flocks of birds go fluttering under the sun’s rays, not all are fraught with meaning.” (2.177–83) To the Greeks that read this, I think the Odyssey would be affirmation that the gods did exist and that the suitors were in the wrong. Perhaps this could be interpreted as a moral lesson? (Quotes are taken from the excellent Robert Fagles translation)
- netcan 8y ago
  I don't think moral and philosophical conclusions are universal in any way. In fact, there's a lot of mismatch between our everyday modern morals and the ancient (or even recent) moral and political religious texts. I do think there's universality of moral and philosophical questions. King Cyrus and #metoo debated the same questions. Plato/Socrates, René Descartes & The Matrix constructed story worlds to highlight the same epistemological problem (what if the world isn't real). Good stories give you a richness of scenarios and questions to discuss, whether you agree or dissent to the author's conclusions.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    I totally agree. Hence why I didn't say they necessarily provided the answers. Though I think our cultures are often deeply intertwined with their religions, which do provide a framework of answers to many of the questions (whether you actually practice said religion or not).
  - kingraoul3 8y ago
    The Iliad and The Odyssey draw pretty murky moral conclusions.
    - netcan 8y ago
      Moral murkiness is a good thing, imo. Show's conflict. Some of my favourite stories are all about murky waters of morality. Moral badness.... Realistically, every morality other than one's own is bad and so statistically...
artsandmeta 8y ago
> I think the writer sells short the comparison of Homer to the bible. It goes a lot deeper than "the one book everyone knows." I didn't get the feeling that the author sold short the analogy between the Bible and the Iliad. After all, he says: > How close is the analogy with the Bible? In terms of sheer cultural ubiquity, pretty close. The Bible's cultural influence on the West is immense and goes much beyond being "the one book everyone knows." Many of Jesus' ethical ideals have become so engrained in our culture we are not even aware of where they came from. For example, the idea expressed in John 9, that a person who is blind from birth is not blind because of the sin of their parents or a sin he was expected to commit. This blame thinking was pervasive in antiquity; you can see a glimpse of this ideal in Book 2 of the Iliad.. Thersites is specifically called out for being ugly and club-footed, before he berates Agamemnon until Odysseus knocks him on the head. Everyone in the assembly praises Odysseus saying "terrific strokes ... he's put a stop to this babbling, foulmouthed fool!" We no longer believe that ugliness and badness are associated. Note that while I suspect this transformation in values is because of the New Testament, I have not researched this carefully and would appreciate being corrected if someone knew more about this. Even if this particular example is not correct, I suspect there are many other similar examples of the influence of the hidden Bible on our culture. I think the author of the review is not trying to discount the association between the Bible and the Iliad, but instead is trying to dismiss the misconception that the Iliad was a "sacred text" like the Bible is. The Iliad is filled with references to the gods, sacrifices, libations, oaths, prayers, and other trappings of religion---but it is poetry that was meant to entertain and Homer took poetic license. And the Greeks knew he took poetic license--that he "lied." The stories about Hera seducing Zeus and Ares having an affair with Aphrodite are comic, and were comic to the Greeks like they are to us. It appears that the Iliad influenced religious practice significantly, but it still doesn't seem right to call it a religious text. Thus, I think the author of the review makes a fair comparison between the Bible and the Iliad.
- netcan 8y ago
  I didn't mean that he's wrong. I agree about the shared language created by the King James in Georgian England and The Iliad across a lot of times and places. I just think that's only the tip of an iceberg. Some of the other points of analogy (like both emerging from the same dark age, on different outskirts of a collapsed civilization) are worth mentioning too. Maybe I phrased that badly. What i meant was "yes, and also."
david_ar 8y ago
Dreamtime stories go back even further, with some thought to have originated soon after the last ice age: https://theconversation.com/ancient-aboriginal-stories-preserve-history-of-a-rise-in-sea-level-36010 https://theconversation.com/ancient-aboriginal-stories-prese...

by netcan 8y ago

beaconstudios 8y ago

perhaps because the messages they carry transcend time. Fundamentally many of the old stories we still value have moral or philosophical components that are foundational to our cultures.

watwut 8y ago
What does that mean, practically? For Odysseus for example, what foundational message does it have? I read it and it was interesting and even fun, I don't know what philosophical or moral component you have in mind. It had nuanced characters, but even that seems to be ignored by our popular culture which focuses exclusively on sirens and such.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- artsandmeta 8y ago
  I think there are some morals in the Odyssey. For example, the assembly at Ithaca in book 2 provides some insight into justice in ancient Greece. Telemachus appears to escalate through three authorities. First, is his own strength, second is the people of Ithaca: Now we have no man like Odysseus in command to drive this curse from the house. We ourselves? We’re hardly the ones to fight them off. All we’d do is parade our wretched weakness. A boy inept at battle. Oh I’d swing to attach if I had the power in me. By god, it’s intolerable, what they do—disgrace, my house a shambles! You should be ashamed yourselves, mortified in the face of neighbors living round about! Fear the gods’ wrath—before they wheel in outrage and make these crimes recoil on your heads. (2.57-67) And when the towns people refuse to do anything, Telemachus escalates to the third authority—the gods: “But if you decide the fare is better, richer here, destroying one man’s goods and going scot-free, all right then, carve away! But I’ll cry out to the everlasting gods in hopes that Zeus will pay you back with a vengeance—all of you destroyed in my house while I go scot-free myself!” (2.141–5) It seems that fear of the gods was the main source of justice in Greek society. Since there were no contracts or court system to build trust between individuals, people relied on oaths—and the fear of the gods if one broke their oath—to build trust. Similarly, if one could not find justice through strength of your fellow men, you could threaten the wrongdoers with a curse. If they feared the gods, they make respond. In such a society an atheist or godless person could not be trusted. Right after Telemachus threatens the suitors with a curse, Zeus sends a sign down in the form of two eagles. One of the old townsmen, who excelled in reading omens and bird signs, said that the eagles were a sign from Zeus that the suitors would get what is coming to them. And the suitors respond: “Stop, old man!” Eurymachus, Polybus’ son, rose up to take him on. “Go home and babble your omens to your children— save them from some catastrophe coming soon. I’m a better hand than you at reading portents. Flocks of birds go fluttering under the sun’s rays, not all are fraught with meaning.” (2.177–83) To the Greeks that read this, I think the Odyssey would be affirmation that the gods did exist and that the suitors were in the wrong. Perhaps this could be interpreted as a moral lesson? (Quotes are taken from the excellent Robert Fagles translation)
netcan 8y ago
I don't think moral and philosophical conclusions are universal in any way. In fact, there's a lot of mismatch between our everyday modern morals and the ancient (or even recent) moral and political religious texts. I do think there's universality of moral and philosophical questions. King Cyrus and #metoo debated the same questions. Plato/Socrates, René Descartes & The Matrix constructed story worlds to highlight the same epistemological problem (what if the world isn't real). Good stories give you a richness of scenarios and questions to discuss, whether you agree or dissent to the author's conclusions.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  I totally agree. Hence why I didn't say they necessarily provided the answers. Though I think our cultures are often deeply intertwined with their religions, which do provide a framework of answers to many of the questions (whether you actually practice said religion or not).
- kingraoul3 8y ago
  The Iliad and The Odyssey draw pretty murky moral conclusions.
  - netcan 8y ago
    Moral murkiness is a good thing, imo. Show's conflict. Some of my favourite stories are all about murky waters of morality. Moral badness.... Realistically, every morality other than one's own is bad and so statistically...

artsandmeta 8y ago

> I think the writer sells short the comparison of Homer to the bible. It goes a lot deeper than "the one book everyone knows." I didn't get the feeling that the author sold short the analogy between the Bible and the Iliad. After all, he says: > How close is the analogy with the Bible? In terms of sheer cultural ubiquity, pretty close. The Bible's cultural influence on the West is immense and goes much beyond being "the one book everyone knows." Many of Jesus' ethical ideals have become so engrained in our culture we are not even aware of where they came from. For example, the idea expressed in John 9, that a person who is blind from birth is not blind because of the sin of their parents or a sin he was expected to commit. This blame thinking was pervasive in antiquity; you can see a glimpse of this ideal in Book 2 of the Iliad.. Thersites is specifically called out for being ugly and club-footed, before he berates Agamemnon until Odysseus knocks him on the head. Everyone in the assembly praises Odysseus saying "terrific strokes ... he's put a stop to this babbling, foulmouthed fool!" We no longer believe that ugliness and badness are associated. Note that while I suspect this transformation in values is because of the New Testament, I have not researched this carefully and would appreciate being corrected if someone knew more about this. Even if this particular example is not correct, I suspect there are many other similar examples of the influence of the hidden Bible on our culture. I think the author of the review is not trying to discount the association between the Bible and the Iliad, but instead is trying to dismiss the misconception that the Iliad was a "sacred text" like the Bible is. The Iliad is filled with references to the gods, sacrifices, libations, oaths, prayers, and other trappings of religion---but it is poetry that was meant to entertain and Homer took poetic license. And the Greeks knew he took poetic license--that he "lied." The stories about Hera seducing Zeus and Ares having an affair with Aphrodite are comic, and were comic to the Greeks like they are to us. It appears that the Iliad influenced religious practice significantly, but it still doesn't seem right to call it a religious text. Thus, I think the author of the review makes a fair comparison between the Bible and the Iliad.

netcan 8y ago
I didn't mean that he's wrong. I agree about the shared language created by the King James in Georgian England and The Iliad across a lot of times and places. I just think that's only the tip of an iceberg. Some of the other points of analogy (like both emerging from the same dark age, on different outskirts of a collapsed civilization) are worth mentioning too. Maybe I phrased that badly. What i meant was "yes, and also."

david_ar 8y ago

Dreamtime stories go back even further, with some thought to have originated soon after the last ice age: https://theconversation.com/ancient-aboriginal-stories-preserve-history-of-a-rise-in-sea-level-36010 https://theconversation.com/ancient-aboriginal-stories-prese...