5 ms·

I had two daughters before I came to the conclusion that this is the most likely path for humanity at this point. There is a possibility of a global awakening

by moosey 8y ago

I had two daughters before I came to the conclusion that this is the most likely path for humanity at this point. There is a possibility of a global awakening that might prevent this tragic loss of megafauna. But I'm already a vegan and don't drive much; can't think of more to do, and while I'm not too bad at dealing with this, it can be quite depressing.

erikpukinskis 8y ago
I think we can do it... you can email me at my username at gmail if you want to chat but we can talk it out a bit here too. Is there any aspect to culture that you’re personally drawn to? Food? Walkable communities? Forests? Wildlife? Durable goods? I really respect that you grasp the magnitude of the problem and you empathize with those who will live with the consequences. That says a lot of you. But you can't stay in a framework where you are feeling depressed about it. That's probably not a good framework to work from.
arghwhat 8y ago
That's barely the tip of the iceberg of what to do. Public transportation or bicycling, avoiding one-time non-consumable items (one-time plates, forks, cups, cup-lids, straws, etc. are an absolute no-go—which means boycutting starbucks and similar if necessary), recycling, rallying against use of polluting materials (less polypropylene and soft plastic packaging in super-markets, for example), less materialistic imports (container ships use the nastiest oils to operate, as international waters have no emission regulations), thinking of ways to make being environmentally friendly simpler, etc. And even more importantly, getting others to do the same. The difference from one person doing all this right will just be a drop of water in the ocean. If it does not spread, it does not matter. Also, as someone who cares about the environment, I would suggest not putting vegan up front as your efforts. Regardless of cause or effect, "vegan" carries a stigma. "Vegetarian" communicates what is needed if the idea is to reduce pollution from cattle farming, and it is less likely to cause instant dismissal. And, also, while replacing meat with vegetable farming has fewer gas emissions than cattle farming, that still does not deal with our farming techniques being unsustainable, or that many types of farming causing massive deforestation (soy, anyone?). Nor does it reduce massive oil pollution, stop the oceans from filling with microplastics, etc. It's but one small thing on a very long list of things we need to fix.
- Spellchamp 8y ago
  Spreading behaviour is so important. Which means it's important to make it "cool" to be environmentally conscious. I think people sometimes underestimate the cool factor when it comes to spreading ideas.
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    You can do all the cool but it is going to have no result when industry is responsible for a third of GHG, agriculture about a fourth and transportation a fifth. To stop those takes regulations and laws. Major investments too which won't happen if not forced either. Best targeted results for efficacy of behaviour modification at a fifth. Good luck. This with self-efficacy training. You cannot do that with everyone so you're bound to fail. Worse if people cannot adapt at all. Tell a guy they now go 50 miles to work by bike is not going to work at all. You cannot destroy a mountain by removing a few shovels of ground. The action and change has to be both forced and massive.
- lellotope 8y ago
  A note about diet: There are some recent studies suggesting that globally, on average, the most environmentally friendly diets have some animal product component because of their ability to make use of landmass that we wouldn't be able to make use of directly. E.g., cattle can eat plants that grow in areas we can't grow human-friendly crops on. I can't find citations to these studies offhand unfortunately. (this is an example but not what I had in mind: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5522483/) But what I remember is that globally, the most environmentally friendly diets had some small animal product component. This also probably varies a lot by location too, so it probably is the case that for some people, the best diet might be vegan; for others it might involve more animal product. Just pointing this out, because there are nonpolitical-psychological-sociological reasons for a "soft" approach on plant-based-diets.
  - moosey 8y ago
    This is true, but from what I've read it is only true for places that are small scale and local. Anything large scale, like feeding a city, would benefit greatly from a reduction, or elimination, of animal products.
roryisok 8y ago
As someone who's been through several cycles of climate related depression this year, I just want to reach out to fellow HNers and say it's not the end of the world. Our society, and our civilisation is going to change, in massive ways in the coming century, one way or another. And all of us are going to live in less luxury than we do now - simply because such luxury is unsustainable. But it doesn't mean or children are all going to starve or drown. We don't know what the future holds. Go back to the boundless optimism of the fifties, where everyone thought we'd live on the moon by now, drive spaceships to work and have robot butlers. I feel like today some of us are at the other end of the spectrum, in boundless pesimism. Do all you can to pollute less, and encourage those around you to do the same. Drive less. Don't fly. Buy second hand. Replace your oil boiler. Grow veg. Write to your representatives But don't give up on your children's future. Just because the world of their twenties won't resemble yours, doesn't mean they won't find happiness. In 30 years the world could be ugly by todays standards but you and i and our kids will probably all still be in it. And for your own mental health, don't let HN comments drag you down. I've seen people on here literally advocating suicide over this issue. We as tech heads are typically of a personality which is susceptible to these negative feedback loops, and reading posts on here can break a person. I'm breaking my own rule today even being here but I'm feeling good for once and wanted to spread it. Be well, have fun with your daughters, watch them grow up.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  How do you know at least some of our children are not going to starve, or worse, be forced into warfare over crucial resources? I'd like that crystal ball you have. Blind optimism is still blind. Facts are not on our side. 50s optimism and status quo dropped us into most of the current problems. (combined with population boom which has now ended) The trends as they are now are not reassuring and there seems to be no political will to touch anything meaningful. It is all fixable but the upheaval is likely going to be massive. We have no idea which form.
  - roryisok 8y ago
    > How do you know at least some of our children are not going to starve, or worse, be forced into warfare over crucial resources? Of course I can't know that, I have no crystal ball. I'm saying that assuming that we're all doomed is as bad as assuming everything is fine and denying the problem. > 50s optimism and status quo dropped us into most of the current problems. I wasn't advocating 50s optimism but rather saying it's an extreme and we've swung to the other extreme, at least on HN. I'm not optimistic about the future but I'm not fatally pessimistic about it either, at least not anymore. Reading comments here is a good way to trigger that fatal pessimism, make you want to quit your job, buy a gun and go live up a mountain. > It is all fixable but the upheaval is likely going to be massive. We have no idea which form. Exactly my point. There will be upheaval. We have no idea. And it won't be a magical fun time. But it might not be a hellish nightmare apocalypse either. Just bear that in mind, comment readers. Don't fall into despair about the future.
y0ghur7_xxx 8y ago
> I'm already a vegan and don't drive much Since 71% of pollution is coming from 100 companies[1] I don't think that you can stop global warming by being vegan or driving less. Blaming us single individuals is easy, but we a are not directly responsible for this. The most we can do is stop buying stuff from these polluting companies. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...
- Arnt 8y ago
  So I went back to the original PDF, https://b8f65cb373b1b7b15feb-c70d8ead6ced550b4d987d7c03fcdd1d.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/cms/reports/documents/000/002/327/original/Carbon-Majors-Report-2017.pdf https://b8f65cb373b1b7b15feb-c70d8ead6ced550b4d987d7c03fcdd1..., to look at the list. I see lots of companies that sell oil there. Or coal. Or things. But none that really emit pollution as a side effect. Someone like 3M could pollute less by changing the way it produces each packet of yellow stickers. The pollution is a side effect, it's something the company can change by internal decisions. Someone like Shell cannot pollute less by selling 1l of petroleum (I assume that pollution during production is a rounding error in this context). The pollution is inherent in the product sold. The act of polluting is identical with the act of selling. Which implies that your last sentence should be "the most we can do is stop buying polluting products".
  - chewz 8y ago
    > The act of polluting is identical with the act of selling. The act of polluting is identical with the act of consuming.
    - Arnt 8y ago
      For the final customer, yes.
- lolsal 8y ago
  > Blaming us single individuals is easy, but we a are not directly responsible for this Companies are comprised of people. Governments are comprised of people. We absolutely are responsible and we have the power to do something about it. Stop being so passive and dismissive, if you care.

by moosey 8y ago

erikpukinskis 8y ago

I think we can do it... you can email me at my username at gmail if you want to chat but we can talk it out a bit here too. Is there any aspect to culture that you’re personally drawn to? Food? Walkable communities? Forests? Wildlife? Durable goods? I really respect that you grasp the magnitude of the problem and you empathize with those who will live with the consequences. That says a lot of you. But you can't stay in a framework where you are feeling depressed about it. That's probably not a good framework to work from.

arghwhat 8y ago

That's barely the tip of the iceberg of what to do. Public transportation or bicycling, avoiding one-time non-consumable items (one-time plates, forks, cups, cup-lids, straws, etc. are an absolute no-go—which means boycutting starbucks and similar if necessary), recycling, rallying against use of polluting materials (less polypropylene and soft plastic packaging in super-markets, for example), less materialistic imports (container ships use the nastiest oils to operate, as international waters have no emission regulations), thinking of ways to make being environmentally friendly simpler, etc. And even more importantly, getting others to do the same. The difference from one person doing all this right will just be a drop of water in the ocean. If it does not spread, it does not matter. Also, as someone who cares about the environment, I would suggest not putting vegan up front as your efforts. Regardless of cause or effect, "vegan" carries a stigma. "Vegetarian" communicates what is needed if the idea is to reduce pollution from cattle farming, and it is less likely to cause instant dismissal. And, also, while replacing meat with vegetable farming has fewer gas emissions than cattle farming, that still does not deal with our farming techniques being unsustainable, or that many types of farming causing massive deforestation (soy, anyone?). Nor does it reduce massive oil pollution, stop the oceans from filling with microplastics, etc. It's but one small thing on a very long list of things we need to fix.

Spellchamp 8y ago
Spreading behaviour is so important. Which means it's important to make it "cool" to be environmentally conscious. I think people sometimes underestimate the cool factor when it comes to spreading ideas.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  You can do all the cool but it is going to have no result when industry is responsible for a third of GHG, agriculture about a fourth and transportation a fifth. To stop those takes regulations and laws. Major investments too which won't happen if not forced either. Best targeted results for efficacy of behaviour modification at a fifth. Good luck. This with self-efficacy training. You cannot do that with everyone so you're bound to fail. Worse if people cannot adapt at all. Tell a guy they now go 50 miles to work by bike is not going to work at all. You cannot destroy a mountain by removing a few shovels of ground. The action and change has to be both forced and massive.
lellotope 8y ago
A note about diet: There are some recent studies suggesting that globally, on average, the most environmentally friendly diets have some animal product component because of their ability to make use of landmass that we wouldn't be able to make use of directly. E.g., cattle can eat plants that grow in areas we can't grow human-friendly crops on. I can't find citations to these studies offhand unfortunately. (this is an example but not what I had in mind: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5522483/) But what I remember is that globally, the most environmentally friendly diets had some small animal product component. This also probably varies a lot by location too, so it probably is the case that for some people, the best diet might be vegan; for others it might involve more animal product. Just pointing this out, because there are nonpolitical-psychological-sociological reasons for a "soft" approach on plant-based-diets.
- moosey 8y ago
  This is true, but from what I've read it is only true for places that are small scale and local. Anything large scale, like feeding a city, would benefit greatly from a reduction, or elimination, of animal products.

roryisok 8y ago

As someone who's been through several cycles of climate related depression this year, I just want to reach out to fellow HNers and say it's not the end of the world. Our society, and our civilisation is going to change, in massive ways in the coming century, one way or another. And all of us are going to live in less luxury than we do now - simply because such luxury is unsustainable. But it doesn't mean or children are all going to starve or drown. We don't know what the future holds. Go back to the boundless optimism of the fifties, where everyone thought we'd live on the moon by now, drive spaceships to work and have robot butlers. I feel like today some of us are at the other end of the spectrum, in boundless pesimism. Do all you can to pollute less, and encourage those around you to do the same. Drive less. Don't fly. Buy second hand. Replace your oil boiler. Grow veg. Write to your representatives But don't give up on your children's future. Just because the world of their twenties won't resemble yours, doesn't mean they won't find happiness. In 30 years the world could be ugly by todays standards but you and i and our kids will probably all still be in it. And for your own mental health, don't let HN comments drag you down. I've seen people on here literally advocating suicide over this issue. We as tech heads are typically of a personality which is susceptible to these negative feedback loops, and reading posts on here can break a person. I'm breaking my own rule today even being here but I'm feeling good for once and wanted to spread it. Be well, have fun with your daughters, watch them grow up.

AstralStorm 8y ago
How do you know at least some of our children are not going to starve, or worse, be forced into warfare over crucial resources? I'd like that crystal ball you have. Blind optimism is still blind. Facts are not on our side. 50s optimism and status quo dropped us into most of the current problems. (combined with population boom which has now ended) The trends as they are now are not reassuring and there seems to be no political will to touch anything meaningful. It is all fixable but the upheaval is likely going to be massive. We have no idea which form.
- roryisok 8y ago
  > How do you know at least some of our children are not going to starve, or worse, be forced into warfare over crucial resources? Of course I can't know that, I have no crystal ball. I'm saying that assuming that we're all doomed is as bad as assuming everything is fine and denying the problem. > 50s optimism and status quo dropped us into most of the current problems. I wasn't advocating 50s optimism but rather saying it's an extreme and we've swung to the other extreme, at least on HN. I'm not optimistic about the future but I'm not fatally pessimistic about it either, at least not anymore. Reading comments here is a good way to trigger that fatal pessimism, make you want to quit your job, buy a gun and go live up a mountain. > It is all fixable but the upheaval is likely going to be massive. We have no idea which form. Exactly my point. There will be upheaval. We have no idea. And it won't be a magical fun time. But it might not be a hellish nightmare apocalypse either. Just bear that in mind, comment readers. Don't fall into despair about the future.

y0ghur7_xxx 8y ago

> I'm already a vegan and don't drive much Since 71% of pollution is coming from 100 companies[1] I don't think that you can stop global warming by being vegan or driving less. Blaming us single individuals is easy, but we a are not directly responsible for this. The most we can do is stop buying stuff from these polluting companies. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...

Arnt 8y ago
So I went back to the original PDF, https://b8f65cb373b1b7b15feb-c70d8ead6ced550b4d987d7c03fcdd1d.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/cms/reports/documents/000/002/327/original/Carbon-Majors-Report-2017.pdf https://b8f65cb373b1b7b15feb-c70d8ead6ced550b4d987d7c03fcdd1..., to look at the list. I see lots of companies that sell oil there. Or coal. Or things. But none that really emit pollution as a side effect. Someone like 3M could pollute less by changing the way it produces each packet of yellow stickers. The pollution is a side effect, it's something the company can change by internal decisions. Someone like Shell cannot pollute less by selling 1l of petroleum (I assume that pollution during production is a rounding error in this context). The pollution is inherent in the product sold. The act of polluting is identical with the act of selling. Which implies that your last sentence should be "the most we can do is stop buying polluting products".
- chewz 8y ago
  > The act of polluting is identical with the act of selling. The act of polluting is identical with the act of consuming.
  - Arnt 8y ago
    For the final customer, yes.
lolsal 8y ago
> Blaming us single individuals is easy, but we a are not directly responsible for this Companies are comprised of people. Governments are comprised of people. We absolutely are responsible and we have the power to do something about it. Stop being so passive and dismissive, if you care.