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I am floored at how you can miss how the context of these advances make it abhorrent.

manfredo 8y ago
How could they make that judgement when no context about the advances were provided? Say I sought VC funding, and met a single investor. In the end, I decide to accept funding from another firm. Afterwards said single investor congratulates me on getting funded and asks me out on a date now that we no longer have a conflict of interest. I decline because I'm not interested in this investor. Did I receive an unwanted romantic advance from an investor? Absolutely. I was asked out on a date when I didn't want one. But was I harassed? It seems dubious to say so. At the time of the advance I had no business relationship with this investor. If the questionnaire specifically said unwanted advances _during_ the search for funding that would be a different situation. But that context isn't given, hence the confusion.
- sgustard 8y ago
  All of the reported incidents were "unwanted sexual contact" or "sexual coercion" or "sexual badgering." I would propose that asking someone on a date should be considered none of those things, unless you're doing it wrong.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    The exact phrase was, "experienced unwanted sexual overtures", not "unwanted sexual contact". If we consider asking someone out on a date to be a sexual overture, then asking someone out on a date and they decline is indeed an instance of "unwanted sexual overtures". Someone made a sexual overture, and it was not wanted. Since YC has not provided how these terms were defined in the questionnaire, we're left to speculate - hence the confusion and contention exhibited in this thread.
    - brenschluss 8y ago
      The fact that a legalistic definition is required for you to understand how an unprofessional gesture is perceived by women is striking. Do you think it would be helpful to have a rule book for men that exactly stipulates what kind of interactions with women are professional, respectful, and friendly? Are men that stupid? (I’m saying this as a man myself).
      - manfredo 8y ago
        In no way is asking for greater clarification about how this question was asked in the survey indicative of an inability to recognize harassment. Not-so-subtly accusing other comments of being incapable of distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable advances and denigrating half the population in response to someone asking for this clarification about the survey is absolutely uncalled for, and it makes me question whether you're interested in a good faith discussion. With that out of the way, the important thing is that injecting one's own assumptions into a survey question risks making vast misinterpretations of the results. The survey merely listed "unwanted sexual overtures". You seem to assume that every reader of this question shares your interpretation as "unwanted and unprofessional sexual overtures" or "unwanted sexual overtures received while seeking funding from an investor" or similar. In practice, many people actually try to answer survey questions honestly. The result of relying on unstated assumptions about the interpretation of survey questions is highly dubious survey results, as I illustrate in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18225907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18225907. And not to mention it risks trivializing the impact of sexual harassment, because plenty of people may look at broad definitions like this and think that the majority of cases of harassment identified by studies like these aren't harassment at all.
        brenschluss 8y ago
        Looks like we have a category mismatch. You seem to care about the classification and definitions of questions present in the survey. I care about finding ways for men (myself included) to understand and think about their blind spots regarding sexual harassment. I am not saying that you are wrong within your chosen frame of what you care about. I am saying is that your frame is not very relevant to my frame. I am also saying that focusing on the survey question is indicative of how you rank the importance about these issues. It’s like the house is on fire, half of the residents of the house are saying “let’s get outside right now”, and you’re saying “hold on, let’s stay inside and figure out whether the fire’s origin is an electrical fire or a wood fire?”
ummonk 8y ago
His whole point is that the survey doesn't provide any context on the advances. Thus it's impossible to tell what fraction of those advances were actually abhorent.

How could they make that judgement when no context about the advances were provided? Say I sought VC funding, and met a single investor. In the end, I decide to accept funding from another firm. Afterwards said single investor congratulates me on getting funded and asks me out on a date now that we no longer have a conflict of interest. I decline because I'm not interested in this investor. Did I receive an unwanted romantic advance from an investor? Absolutely. I was asked out on a date when I didn't want one. But was I harassed? It seems dubious to say so. At the time of the advance I had no business relationship with this investor. If the questionnaire specifically said unwanted advances _during_ the search for funding that would be a different situation. But that context isn't given, hence the confusion.

sgustard 8y ago
All of the reported incidents were "unwanted sexual contact" or "sexual coercion" or "sexual badgering." I would propose that asking someone on a date should be considered none of those things, unless you're doing it wrong.
- manfredo 8y ago
  The exact phrase was, "experienced unwanted sexual overtures", not "unwanted sexual contact". If we consider asking someone out on a date to be a sexual overture, then asking someone out on a date and they decline is indeed an instance of "unwanted sexual overtures". Someone made a sexual overture, and it was not wanted. Since YC has not provided how these terms were defined in the questionnaire, we're left to speculate - hence the confusion and contention exhibited in this thread.
  - brenschluss 8y ago
    The fact that a legalistic definition is required for you to understand how an unprofessional gesture is perceived by women is striking. Do you think it would be helpful to have a rule book for men that exactly stipulates what kind of interactions with women are professional, respectful, and friendly? Are men that stupid? (I’m saying this as a man myself).
    - manfredo 8y ago
      In no way is asking for greater clarification about how this question was asked in the survey indicative of an inability to recognize harassment. Not-so-subtly accusing other comments of being incapable of distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable advances and denigrating half the population in response to someone asking for this clarification about the survey is absolutely uncalled for, and it makes me question whether you're interested in a good faith discussion. With that out of the way, the important thing is that injecting one's own assumptions into a survey question risks making vast misinterpretations of the results. The survey merely listed "unwanted sexual overtures". You seem to assume that every reader of this question shares your interpretation as "unwanted and unprofessional sexual overtures" or "unwanted sexual overtures received while seeking funding from an investor" or similar. In practice, many people actually try to answer survey questions honestly. The result of relying on unstated assumptions about the interpretation of survey questions is highly dubious survey results, as I illustrate in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18225907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18225907. And not to mention it risks trivializing the impact of sexual harassment, because plenty of people may look at broad definitions like this and think that the majority of cases of harassment identified by studies like these aren't harassment at all.
      - brenschluss 8y ago
        Looks like we have a category mismatch. You seem to care about the classification and definitions of questions present in the survey. I care about finding ways for men (myself included) to understand and think about their blind spots regarding sexual harassment. I am not saying that you are wrong within your chosen frame of what you care about. I am saying is that your frame is not very relevant to my frame. I am also saying that focusing on the survey question is indicative of how you rank the importance about these issues. It’s like the house is on fire, half of the residents of the house are saying “let’s get outside right now”, and you’re saying “hold on, let’s stay inside and figure out whether the fire’s origin is an electrical fire or a wood fire?”

ummonk 8y ago

His whole point is that the survey doesn't provide any context on the advances. Thus it's impossible to tell what fraction of those advances were actually abhorent.