5 ms·

> Some of those overtures are going to be unwanted, but the men basically have to try to find out. Sexual overtures at a bar: okay. Sexual overtures at a sex

by Swizec 8y ago

> Some of those overtures are going to be unwanted, but the men basically have to try to find out. Sexual overtures at a bar: okay. Sexual overtures at a sex party: very okay. Sexual overtures at a house party: prob okay. Sexual overtures at a grocery store: eeeeh maybe if you're really hot and she gives you the look. Sexual overtures at the office: very not okay Sexual overtures at a VC event: way not cool. Sexual overtures at an office party: not good. Sexual overtures at an official after-party of a business event: nope. Sexual overtures at the after after party with those 10 people who wanted to party some more after a business event after party: depends, read the room. It's about context. Don't be a creep.

abstractbeliefs 8y ago
I'm really glad someone has identified that it's about context and each instance should be judged on a case-by-case basis. I'm equally surprised that at the same time, it comes with a list of pre-judged decisions where you have removed the context in favour of just the title of the event. There are absolutely situations in bars and house parties where one should not make any kind of move. Likewise, there are office parties where one could. Before I get to the next bit, it's important to realise and understand that "no" really does mean no. With that in mind, it's also true that there are men and women who say "no", but still mean yes. This is one small facet of that whole debate, but the point is subtleties matter. People saying "no" when they mean yes is still a real thing, like it or not, and some people have a hard time differentiating when this is the case. There are also people who of course don't care, but they are far less controversial. What we need to do is all pull together to work to clarify how we communicate interest in each other. And that means all people, of all sexes and genders and orientations and class.
- Swizec 8y ago
  > I'm equally surprised that at the same time, it comes with a list of pre-judged decisions where you have removed the context in favour of just the title of the event. I believe some situations require more assurance of “it’s okay” than others. In the office, I’d have to be super very absolutely certain it’s okay before saying anything. At a singles event in a bar I might lead with a sexual overtone and see what happens. And no always means no. Once you say no I say sorry and move on. Although I do like the policy of a sex club I was at once: If you do anything you have to apologize for, you are banned from the club for forever. More venues should adopt that policy.
  - abstractbeliefs 8y ago
    Absolutely, the setting can set the general tone, but I'm simply pointing out that the numerous people saying "making a pass in situation X is always wrong", because it's really not as clean cut as that. I was especially surprised to see someone get that and say that context matters, but then still start reeling off "yes"s and "no"s to settings without context.
manfredo 8y ago
> Sexual overtures at an office party: not good. Interesting. Multiple women I know started dating co-workers (in entirely different parts of the company) at work parties, and did not think it was bad or unusual. Perhaps interpretations of statements like "don't be a creep" are a lot more diverse than you think.
- itronitron 8y ago
  'office party' is an oxymoron, but then I've never lived in California
- 0x8BADF00D 8y ago
  It all depends on how attractive you are as a male. If a woman is repulsed by you physically, then even being in the same vicinity will be construed as harassment. But if a woman is physically attracted to you, anything you say is fair game and even welcomed. So in the end “don’t be a creep” doesn’t mean anything.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    While "even being in the same vicinity will be construed as harassment" is hyperbolic, there definitely is a sense that women expect men to divine whether or not they want to be asked out beforehand. The reality is that the only way to know if someone is interested is to ask them. Saying things like "read the signs" often just either discourages men from making any move at all, or emboldeneds men to make more socially unacceptable advances because they think they've read the signs. I think this is a big part of why online dating is growing in prevalence. Why take the social risk of being labeled a "creep" when you can go to places where whether or not women are interested is determined upfront?
    - exogeny 8y ago
      >there definitely is a sense that women expect men to divine whether or not they want to be asked out beforehand This statement alone says everything I'll ever need to know about what your real problems are with women.
pentae 8y ago
Anecdotally, I've been hit on by women at after-parties of business events almost to the point where it was cringe worthy. But I guess these rules should only apply to men?

by Swizec 8y ago

abstractbeliefs 8y ago

I'm really glad someone has identified that it's about context and each instance should be judged on a case-by-case basis. I'm equally surprised that at the same time, it comes with a list of pre-judged decisions where you have removed the context in favour of just the title of the event. There are absolutely situations in bars and house parties where one should not make any kind of move. Likewise, there are office parties where one could. Before I get to the next bit, it's important to realise and understand that "no" really does mean no. With that in mind, it's also true that there are men and women who say "no", but still mean yes. This is one small facet of that whole debate, but the point is subtleties matter. People saying "no" when they mean yes is still a real thing, like it or not, and some people have a hard time differentiating when this is the case. There are also people who of course don't care, but they are far less controversial. What we need to do is all pull together to work to clarify how we communicate interest in each other. And that means all people, of all sexes and genders and orientations and class.

Swizec 8y ago
> I'm equally surprised that at the same time, it comes with a list of pre-judged decisions where you have removed the context in favour of just the title of the event. I believe some situations require more assurance of “it’s okay” than others. In the office, I’d have to be super very absolutely certain it’s okay before saying anything. At a singles event in a bar I might lead with a sexual overtone and see what happens. And no always means no. Once you say no I say sorry and move on. Although I do like the policy of a sex club I was at once: If you do anything you have to apologize for, you are banned from the club for forever. More venues should adopt that policy.
- abstractbeliefs 8y ago
  Absolutely, the setting can set the general tone, but I'm simply pointing out that the numerous people saying "making a pass in situation X is always wrong", because it's really not as clean cut as that. I was especially surprised to see someone get that and say that context matters, but then still start reeling off "yes"s and "no"s to settings without context.

manfredo 8y ago

> Sexual overtures at an office party: not good. Interesting. Multiple women I know started dating co-workers (in entirely different parts of the company) at work parties, and did not think it was bad or unusual. Perhaps interpretations of statements like "don't be a creep" are a lot more diverse than you think.

itronitron 8y ago
'office party' is an oxymoron, but then I've never lived in California
0x8BADF00D 8y ago
It all depends on how attractive you are as a male. If a woman is repulsed by you physically, then even being in the same vicinity will be construed as harassment. But if a woman is physically attracted to you, anything you say is fair game and even welcomed. So in the end “don’t be a creep” doesn’t mean anything.
- manfredo 8y ago
  While "even being in the same vicinity will be construed as harassment" is hyperbolic, there definitely is a sense that women expect men to divine whether or not they want to be asked out beforehand. The reality is that the only way to know if someone is interested is to ask them. Saying things like "read the signs" often just either discourages men from making any move at all, or emboldeneds men to make more socially unacceptable advances because they think they've read the signs. I think this is a big part of why online dating is growing in prevalence. Why take the social risk of being labeled a "creep" when you can go to places where whether or not women are interested is determined upfront?
  - exogeny 8y ago
    >there definitely is a sense that women expect men to divine whether or not they want to be asked out beforehand This statement alone says everything I'll ever need to know about what your real problems are with women.

pentae 8y ago

Anecdotally, I've been hit on by women at after-parties of business events almost to the point where it was cringe worthy. But I guess these rules should only apply to men?