7 ms·

So, Jeff Atwood can't take me seriously as a programmer: As he puts it, when was the last time you saw a hunt and peck pianist? But I'm a composer, not a piani

• wvenable 16y ago
  > But I'm a composer, not a pianist. Perhaps Atwood's analogy isn't the best. Programmers are the composers and the computer itself is the pianist, running the composition. However, you need a keyboard to compose! I don't think my typing really got fast until I started using instant messaging. When it comes to programming, I could always type a lot faster than I could think. I'm probably typing this message significantly faster than I'd type any code.
• petercooper 16y ago
  So, Jeff Atwood can't take me seriously as a programmer Thankfully this is hardly a slamming indictment.
  • raganwald 16y ago
    No, but at the same time, I wonder if being a terrible typist is a little like riding my bike with a rusty chain. Maybe my riding is more about where than how fast, but whatever my speed, there must be a decent return on being more efficient. If I typed more quickly, maybe I would have more time for thinking. That might be very important.
    • rbxbx 16y ago
      Perhaps while hunting that next key, you'll have realized a better solution. Perhaps knowing the eventual time you must spend to type causes you to think more before you begin typing... Who's to say? That said, I can't imagine those blog posts come out quickly :)
    • gaustin 16y ago
      I probably spend less time thinking thoroughly because I can type fluently. If I typed slower, I'd have to be more confident that what I was typing was reasonable. It's probably just a discipline issue on my part.
      • alextgordon 16y ago
        When I.....'m writing ... I make lots of pauses .... to.. give.. me.. time.. to think. In ......... my opinion it's impo..r..t..ant to make ... these pauses.. when programming .... otherwise you might ... miss ................ something important.
    • petercooper 16y ago
      If I typed more quickly, maybe I would have more time for thinking. That might be very important. Maybe, but I don't personally buy it (as a fast typer myself). I think programming shares a lot with writing where the editing is more important than the first draft. In my experience, typing speed doesn't significantly affect the quality of a writer's work, though perhaps it does the quantity. You are proof of this. From what I've seen, your writing is good and goes down well on HN, yet you've identified as a "slow" typist. I don't see why your code should be any different.
      • loup-vaillant 16y ago
        For me, it had a great impact. Typing faster means that I'm now more inclined to review and rewrite my work. Plus, writing more helps me write better, over time.
      • nerfhammer 16y ago
• jrockway 16y ago
  Keyboards are an impediment to your work. Programming is thinking and creating, but, unfortunately, you need to get your ideas into the computer somehow. Ideally our brains could connect with a computer so that we could instantly share ideas and feedback. Instead, you have to impart your ideas onto the computer by mashing its rubber buttons. If you don't do that, your ideas and creativity are nearly useless. So it makes sense to make the button-mashing as optimal as possible, so that there is no friction involved in programming. A few minutes of practicing new entry methods (using the right fingers for the right keys, etc.) eventually results in a less annoying interface between your brain and your computer. And that makes programming more productive and enjoyable. (Interestingly, this post would have been much better if I had bothered to connect my HHKB to my netbook. Using the shitty netbook keyboard made me want to get commenting over with as quickly as possible. Make this a habit, and your shit keyboard results in shit work. For me, anyway.)
  • bambax 16y ago
    > Keyboards are an impediment to your work. Programming is thinking and creating... This at first sounds true but really isn't; programming is not pure thought: it's thinking and implementing and seeing how the implementation goes and trying a different way, having new ideas, etc. You can't "think" in a pure vacuum; you need to bounce ideas off something real. I do some woodworking and let me assure you the "ideas" that I have before starting a project get changed a lot when confronted to the reality of wood and tools. After a while you discover that, to some extent, you end up making your own tools, that fit you and the projects you like to do. Programming-wise, that's also why I dislike IDEs: they add an additional layer between you and the object you're working on; it's like woodworking with gloves (impossible). And they don't contribute much; they advertise "speed", but the slow part is thinking, not typing! - - - (I'm typing this on a daskeyboard with blank keys, I've used it for two years, it's fantastic.)
    • isyourfriend 16y ago
      I am a SLOW typist. But I can tell you this much. With the amount of work I get done I could not care less if I could type faster. Why? Simple: I write a lot of code generators and scripts that create/execute scripts. Given that I would say that the quality and time I get my job done is far way ahead many people that are much better typists Just my $0.02
• jerf 16y ago
  If you can't touch type, try switching to Dvorak or one of the keyboard layouts. You will of course have to learn the new layout, but you won't have to learn to touch type. It's so rewarding that part will happen naturally. There's no reason for your fingers to leave the home row, so they won't. It's that simple. Note I'm not saying this because it's just that much more awesome or whatever, this is a real concrete change I experienced. I wasn't "hunt and peck" but I was all over the board and thought stodgy typing rules were silly. Right opinion, wrong reason; the rules are nonsense on a QWERTY board, but make sense with sane layouts. Whether proficient QWERTY touch typists should switch, I don't know, but the value proposition for someone who isn't really proficient is a lot more compelling. Hunt and peck typist's brains are simply correctly reacting to the lack of utility of using the home row correctly, and if you fix that problem the rest will just flow.
  • anthuswilliams 16y ago
    The problem with switching to Dvorak is the same problem I see with too much customization on an IDE or a word processor. Few people I know use one computer only. So no matter how adamantly I insist a Dvorak configuration, there will always be situations in which I am obligated to go QWERTY. It's not worth it to me to become proficient with Dvorak, even if I can see wins in typing speed and accuracy, because I'll incur ten times the frustration when forced to perform routine operations on a friend or coworker's computer.
• sliverstorm 16y ago
  I think you're reading too much into it. It's just that most programmers have gotten to the typing level where ideas flow through their fingers basically at the speed of thought, and anything that blocks that drives you insane.
  • mfukar 16y ago
    I'd hate it if my brain had slowed down to the point of being blocked by my fingers..
  • raganwald 16y ago
    From what little you know of me, do I strike you as someone who is driven insane by the fact that I can't transcribe my thoughts as quickly as I can imagine them? And if I was driven insane by the impediment of a keyboard, do you think I would suffer it gladly? Which is my way of saying, I haven't been driven insane by it and I don't perceive that my ideas are suffering in a traffic jam trying to get out of my brain and into the computer.
• jwinter 16y ago
  To rebut your Steve Yegge post with another Steve Yegge post (his opinion, at least in 2008, was closer to Jeff's than yours): http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirtiest-little-secret.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirties...
• georgemcbay 16y ago
  I type code (and spoken language) pretty fast (upwards of 90wpm) using a weird style that isn't traditional touch-typing (I only use my index fingers and my thumbs) but also doesn't involve hunting and pecking because I have enough muscle memory and experience with different keyboards to intuitively know the distances between each of the keys I want to hit, and thus I can do it without looking down at the keyboard or even thinking about the process at all. So I guess I'm "fast enough" for the Atwoods and Yegges of the world that think you have to type fast to be a great programmer. However... Having said all of this, I do my best programming in the the 20 minute walks I take after getting up and walking away from the code for a while, not while I'm actively sitting at the keyboard typing stuff in. At the point in which I'm typing, I'm basically just dictating my own previous thoughts into a text editor and while it might make me marginally overall more efficient to do this faster, it is not at all the bottleneck of my entire process, it isn't even one of the top 25 hotspots. Given my own process, I've never understood why anyone could possibly attempt to make a connection between input speed and quality. I could type one line of code a minute and typing still wouldn't be the botttleneck to me creating great code and I find it hard to believe that is true of anyone else if they are really being honest about their overall development process.
• 83457 16y ago
  I think people often pre-judge others on their typing ability like some judge the intelligence of someone they meet based on proper grammar, accents and speech differences. For example someone with a slow southern draw to their speech, relative to the listener, is often assumed less intelligent.
  • reduxredacted 16y ago
    I think people often pre-judge others on their typing ability like some judge the intelligence You're likely correct, and I've found myself doing this with some of my coworkers, however, over time I've come to understand it for what it is: There are many occasions in coding where I do not find it necessary to type quickly. I can type at the speed a typical person speaks -- and accurately -- and without effort (including symbols, numbers and other elements that are uncommon in spoken language but common in programming languages). I have never met an effective developer who is a "hunt and peck" typist, but I've met plenty that land in around 30 wpm. The distinction, I think, lies in how much effort it takes our 30 wpm individual to produce 30 wpm. Touch-typing (which I define as being able to type without looking at or for the key you're looking to hit) means not having to actively "think" when I type. I know where the keys are by instinct/muscle memory. I can keep my eyes on the screen, or on my hand-written "napkin note", or on my white-board (and often a mix of the three) and transfer that information to implementation without perceivable interruption. Like it or not, the keyboard is a bit of a tool of the trade. That doesn't mean you have to be a perfect typist (I don't use my pinkies to hit the letter "p", and until I purchased a split keyboard, I always reached with my left for the "y"), but a reasonable analogy would be one of a chef who can't properly handle a knife. Successful chefs don't always cut the way you're taught at the CIA (or wherever), but they handle the knife with precision and accuracy (and without effort or injury). They don't have to think about it, they just know what the finished ingredient is going to look like when their hands are done with the motions. For example someone with a slow southern draw to their speech, relative to the listener, is often assumed less intelligent. I couldn't resist responding to this one: I remember having a calculus teacher with a serious Southern drawl and I recall thinking he was very unintelligent. It was an error in judgment because I could barely understand him in a lecture setting and struggled in his class as a result (this was remedied by taking advantage of office hours and tutors). After a while I got used to it and it had a sort of accidental side-effect. I had to actively listen to understand him which resulted in my actively paying attention. He was a brilliant individual, and a gifted instructor (as well as a patient one ... willing to explain things one-on-one with a student (me) who was struggling at the time). Maybe teaching with a serious southern drawl in a northern state made him less effective, or maybe not. I'm not sure. Food for thought.