6 ms·

Not very often at all. We know the difference. We know, or learn quite quickly, as do the vast majority of men, how to politely say no, to those who wish to be

by neffy 8y ago

Not very often at all. We know the difference. We know, or learn quite quickly, as do the vast majority of men, how to politely say no, to those who wish to be polite. Stop assuming this is hysteria, it's not. It's a collective, we're just tired of this. And let me also offer some quick and dirty math to support that it's not a majority of men. Let's assume 1% of men don't know how to be polite and in fact enjoy being abusive. They do this on average 1/week to a randomly chosen woman. Within a relatively short time every woman will have had at least one unpleasant experience. For the most part these individuals pick on people they presume to be easy targets, so some women get treated much worse than others, just as men who are perceived to be easy targets equally have problems - probably with the same guys. That's also why the power dynamics play into it, the definition of easy target depends on that. And at some point, everybody just gives up, deals with their situation as best they can, and tries to never go upstairs ever again in Yale frat houses.

sololipsist 8y ago
Do you understand that if you perceive non-harassment as harassment, you're perceiving it as harassment, so of course you think you're not misperceiving it? Like, you get that reality is sometimes different from your perception of it? If someone suggests you're misperceiving something and your only reply is "I'm not because I know I'm not," you have an obvious epistemological problem.
- neffy 8y ago
  That's the thing about personal experiences - they tend to transcend epistemology - but fortunately, at least in my case, not basic self-defence techniques.
  - sololipsist 8y ago
    Edit: Wow. I know this crowd understands that personal experience doesn't transcend epistemology. I know the vast majority of you know that's a terrible argument. This comment section is blatantly political. This is sad. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No they don't. People tend to ignore epistemological difficulties with personal experience, but that doesn't mean they transcend it. Do you know what epistemology is?
- munchbunny 8y ago
  If it's one woman who stands out in complaining about harassment, then maybe you have an argument. But you have to believe that a giant chunk of the female population are oversensitive and have siege mentalities in order to actually make a counterpoint to the study. Do you actually believe that many women are oversensitive to harassment?
  - jhfhhhf 8y ago
    Not really a giant chunk, just a very vocal chunk which might well just be a minority. Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim. At the very least, many don't really have the comparison to what it is like to be unattractive, which is not very pleasant, either. Many people expend a lot of money and time to become more physical attractive. Few people expend effort to become less attractive. What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. So telling such stories is a double whammy: you can show proof that you are attractive, and get some pity points and protection, too.
    - Falling3 8y ago
      >What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. I'm more surprised than I probably should be about how much this misses the mark. You don't actually believe only "attractive" women are sexually harassed do you?
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim. Harassment isn't the same as interest. Heck, expressions of interest aren't the same as interest. You are insulting men by equating male sexual interest with harassment. > What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. No, you don't. Because the people who actually take accusations of sexual harassment seriously don't associate it with attractiveness (people who habitually defend harassers or who are serial harassers themselves like to associate them, at least rhetorically, as part of a defense against harassment claims by arguing that the accuser isn't attractive enough to harass, but that's about as far as the association goes.)
- brenschluss 8y ago
  Let’s I do something to you and you really don’t like it, but I think it’s okay. Imagine I say, “Why are you misperceiving my actions as harassment? You seem to have an epistemological problem.” What’s your response?
- jhfhhhf 8y ago
  Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise. That would be the ultimate goal of the power game feminism is playing. Political correctness is another tool for that, censoring my thoughts. If you want to convince me, show me things I can perceive and factor into my estimate of the situation. Don't ask me to simply believe stuff. That would be mind control and power games, and I am not playing.
  - munchbunny 8y ago
    Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise. What? You're just saying in a roundabout way that the truth is whatever you think it is. That doesn't make any sense. What would it take for you to accept the conclusion of the posted study at face value? Usually when I encounter someone claiming a great feminist agenda, their minds were made up beforehand and they never even tried to entertain the possibility that they might be wrong. Maybe you're the exception, but that would be counter to my perceptions.
tomp 8y ago
It clearly is hysteria. Maybe it's uncovering a real problem (I am inclined to believe data like from this article), but it's most definitely, obviously a hysteria. The media is very happy to pounce on accusations, and many of the most widely publicised ones have turned out to be either completely false (A Rape on Campus, mattress girl, Oxford Union, Duke Lacrosse, Jian Gomeshi) or extremely overblown (Tim Hunt, Rosetta guy). We cannot talk about this problem clearly and rationally and devise sensible and effective solutions until people stop being hysterical.
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  You're both right here, but also remember that the 'hysterical' ones are a tiny slice of the people who are upset about this. We'll never get to a place where there aren't at least a handful of manic twitter addicts being crazy about the issue. Waiting "until people stop talking crazy" just means no action, ever.
- rainonmoon 8y ago
  This isn't just about the most widely publicised events (in which just as many and more as the ones you listed were spot on) but about something that impacts women at every level of society. Try talking to your female friends about it.
  - sievebrain 8y ago
    The women making false claims are at every level of society. There is be very obviously a massively unhealthy amount of exaggeration and lying going on, so why would asking random female friends yield any insight? Here's my experience with not asking my female friends about this topic: it came up anyway in unrelated conversations and both times they were very clearly bullshitting me. One girl claimed she'd nearly been raped, and when I expressed surprise, told me a story in which she met a guy at a party, flirted with him and led him on all night (her words), took him home with her, made out with him, went into her bedroom after saying she was going to change and would be right back, then at the very last second decided actually she didn't want sex and changed into her PJ's. She then told the guy to go home and he said something like,"that's not fair, you can't do that". Obviously expressing dismay at how she'd misled him about her intentions. She interpreted this final remark as "I'm about to get raped" and then (again in her words) had a melt down and started yelling and screaming at him until he left. There was nothing in this story to suggest she was in any danger at all. In another case a girl I knew suddenly announced she might accuse a former friend of hers of sexual harassment. The reason was he was also a former manager and had given her tough feedback about poor career choices she made, so he wasn't a friend anymore. I'm afraid my experience of women self reporting this stuff matches exactly what we see with #metoo and the recent kavanaugh hearing. Women are simply not reliable self reporters of sexual harassment or assault.

by neffy 8y ago

sololipsist 8y ago

Do you understand that if you perceive non-harassment as harassment, you're perceiving it as harassment, so of course you think you're not misperceiving it? Like, you get that reality is sometimes different from your perception of it? If someone suggests you're misperceiving something and your only reply is "I'm not because I know I'm not," you have an obvious epistemological problem.

neffy 8y ago
That's the thing about personal experiences - they tend to transcend epistemology - but fortunately, at least in my case, not basic self-defence techniques.
- sololipsist 8y ago
  Edit: Wow. I know this crowd understands that personal experience doesn't transcend epistemology. I know the vast majority of you know that's a terrible argument. This comment section is blatantly political. This is sad. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No they don't. People tend to ignore epistemological difficulties with personal experience, but that doesn't mean they transcend it. Do you know what epistemology is?
munchbunny 8y ago
If it's one woman who stands out in complaining about harassment, then maybe you have an argument. But you have to believe that a giant chunk of the female population are oversensitive and have siege mentalities in order to actually make a counterpoint to the study. Do you actually believe that many women are oversensitive to harassment?
- jhfhhhf 8y ago
  Not really a giant chunk, just a very vocal chunk which might well just be a minority. Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim. At the very least, many don't really have the comparison to what it is like to be unattractive, which is not very pleasant, either. Many people expend a lot of money and time to become more physical attractive. Few people expend effort to become less attractive. What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. So telling such stories is a double whammy: you can show proof that you are attractive, and get some pity points and protection, too.
  - Falling3 8y ago
    >What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. I'm more surprised than I probably should be about how much this misses the mark. You don't actually believe only "attractive" women are sexually harassed do you?
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim. Harassment isn't the same as interest. Heck, expressions of interest aren't the same as interest. You are insulting men by equating male sexual interest with harassment. > What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. No, you don't. Because the people who actually take accusations of sexual harassment seriously don't associate it with attractiveness (people who habitually defend harassers or who are serial harassers themselves like to associate them, at least rhetorically, as part of a defense against harassment claims by arguing that the accuser isn't attractive enough to harass, but that's about as far as the association goes.)
brenschluss 8y ago
Let’s I do something to you and you really don’t like it, but I think it’s okay. Imagine I say, “Why are you misperceiving my actions as harassment? You seem to have an epistemological problem.” What’s your response?
jhfhhhf 8y ago
Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise. That would be the ultimate goal of the power game feminism is playing. Political correctness is another tool for that, censoring my thoughts. If you want to convince me, show me things I can perceive and factor into my estimate of the situation. Don't ask me to simply believe stuff. That would be mind control and power games, and I am not playing.
- munchbunny 8y ago
  Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise. What? You're just saying in a roundabout way that the truth is whatever you think it is. That doesn't make any sense. What would it take for you to accept the conclusion of the posted study at face value? Usually when I encounter someone claiming a great feminist agenda, their minds were made up beforehand and they never even tried to entertain the possibility that they might be wrong. Maybe you're the exception, but that would be counter to my perceptions.

tomp 8y ago

It clearly is hysteria. Maybe it's uncovering a real problem (I am inclined to believe data like from this article), but it's most definitely, obviously a hysteria. The media is very happy to pounce on accusations, and many of the most widely publicised ones have turned out to be either completely false (A Rape on Campus, mattress girl, Oxford Union, Duke Lacrosse, Jian Gomeshi) or extremely overblown (Tim Hunt, Rosetta guy). We cannot talk about this problem clearly and rationally and devise sensible and effective solutions until people stop being hysterical.

yourbandsucks 8y ago
You're both right here, but also remember that the 'hysterical' ones are a tiny slice of the people who are upset about this. We'll never get to a place where there aren't at least a handful of manic twitter addicts being crazy about the issue. Waiting "until people stop talking crazy" just means no action, ever.
rainonmoon 8y ago
This isn't just about the most widely publicised events (in which just as many and more as the ones you listed were spot on) but about something that impacts women at every level of society. Try talking to your female friends about it.
- sievebrain 8y ago
  The women making false claims are at every level of society. There is be very obviously a massively unhealthy amount of exaggeration and lying going on, so why would asking random female friends yield any insight? Here's my experience with not asking my female friends about this topic: it came up anyway in unrelated conversations and both times they were very clearly bullshitting me. One girl claimed she'd nearly been raped, and when I expressed surprise, told me a story in which she met a guy at a party, flirted with him and led him on all night (her words), took him home with her, made out with him, went into her bedroom after saying she was going to change and would be right back, then at the very last second decided actually she didn't want sex and changed into her PJ's. She then told the guy to go home and he said something like,"that's not fair, you can't do that". Obviously expressing dismay at how she'd misled him about her intentions. She interpreted this final remark as "I'm about to get raped" and then (again in her words) had a melt down and started yelling and screaming at him until he left. There was nothing in this story to suggest she was in any danger at all. In another case a girl I knew suddenly announced she might accuse a former friend of hers of sexual harassment. The reason was he was also a former manager and had given her tough feedback about poor career choices she made, so he wasn't a friend anymore. I'm afraid my experience of women self reporting this stuff matches exactly what we see with #metoo and the recent kavanaugh hearing. Women are simply not reliable self reporters of sexual harassment or assault.